By Ezzie Goldish
(Originally published on Serandez)
Ed. note: Part of why this post has taken three days (!) to write is that there’s both so much to say and so little to say at the same time. When it comes down to it, most people know how to act, are aware that they’re sometimes judgmental, and that they’re not as accepting as they can be. They try hard to correct it, they talk about it, they really work at it – and most people really are decent and good most of the time. Not much is necessarily added by talking about it, though perhaps something is. I also realized that in the process of writing the post, I completely got away from what part of my original intention was, which was to encourage good people – which I think that thankfully SerandEz readers are – to come to the Shabbaton we’re running together with BeyondBT in a couple of weeks (Aug 15-16). So… come! :)
There was recently an article that went around the J-blogosphere discussing the “second class” treatment that BTs sometimes receive. This is not the focus of this post. BeyondBT linked to the piece with a simple question:
In your experience, are BTs generally treated as second class citizens in the communities you’ve lived in?
While the overall answer in the comments was a big, “Well, not really…”, the thread of comments was fascinating. As I noted to Mark Frankel, one of the administrators there:
me: i think that the thread on the Second Class post is one of the best on the blog, ever, and is really what the blog is all about in so many diff ways.
BeyondBT: in what ways is it what the blog all about?
me: fitting in, whether BTs should be trying to fit in, what exactly is diff about BTs in the first place, are those positive or negative things, do they need to be “fixed”, are they treated differently, how are they treated differently, is it because they’re BTs per se, what can be done about it… etc.
that thread alone covered all of those.
Many commenters touched on what I think is an important point. When ba’alei teshuva run into situations where they feel like they are being treated as second class citizens, it often has very little to do with their status as BTs and far more to do with the people doing the excluding. The same issues often will come up among any Orthodox family – for nearly every characteristic a person or family can have, there are going to be those that wish to exclude them for those same characteristics. The issue is not whether BTs or any other grouping (Sephardim, Charedim, Modern, Yeshivish, Black-Hat, Srugis, etc.) are considered second-class, but why people feel a need to be elitist, and why we’re hurt when we’re not in the self-proclaimed elite group.
I don’t know that either of those are particularly “solvable” issues – only issues that can be minimized. Unfortunately, there are always going to be people who wish to be exclusionary and find a need to put down other groups to raise their own. On the flip side, the motto atop this blog (Be yourself, because the people who care don’t matter, and the people who matter don’t care – Serach) serves as a good reminder of how to view such elitism – a frum Jew needs to only follow the guidelines the Torah sets out, not the “rules” that an individual community, or more often, a small subset of a community try to overtly force on its members. There should be no hurt at being “excluded” from an elitist group – would a person truly wish to be part of a group that thumbs its nose at anyone who is not just like them? Obviously not.
But then again, this is reality. While in our personal relationships and in our own conduct it is easy to do what is right and what we wish, and not cater to the demands of unreasonable others, the reality is that we sometimes have to face situations such as these. The question becomes how to approach them, and obviously, every situation calls for its own set of guidelines and specific responses.
Most important, however, is that to effect a real change in the Jewish community as a whole these attitudes need to be changed. While it is quite difficult for any individual to effect change on a large scale, one need only to follow the advice of R’ Israel Salanter to do so* – by focusing on one’s own actions first. The more we focus on ensuring that we live up to certain ideals and respect differences as other approaches and not “worse” ones, and demonstrate that, the more the people around us will (and to some extent are forced to do so) as well.
Case in point: A woman called me about a shidduch for her daughter, asking about a friend of mine. One of the questions was how he dressed – ‘does he dress “black and white”, does he wear colored shirts, how does he dress on Shabbos…’ As I often do with questions like this, I decided to make a small point (but nicely) with the response. “My friend wears suits on Shabbos and dresses very nicely during the week. I don’t think he finds whether the shirt is white to be particularly important; he simply dresses very respectably and doesn’t particularly care about that.” After a slight hesitation, she said “Right, that is more superficial bu…”, trailing off as if she was going to say more, but clearly thinking about the concept as she said it, and I cut in simply that “Yes, exactly. [It is superficial.]”
Most people in the Orthodox world who have exclusive views haven’t given much thought to them. They go along with the narrow viewpoints that exist because that’s what you do and because they haven’t given much thought to it. By quietly, and kindly, separating the real stuff from the shtus we help people see past that. By noting nicely the positive impacts and traits a certain group have we help people see those things, and often times, an indirect approach is the best. A lot of people lately have been linking to the now deceased Randy Pausch’s “Last Lecture” (and the hour to watch the whole thing will change your life in ways that are well worth the hour), and he talks about using “head fakes” to teach lessons. After an hour and fourteen minutes on the theme of the speech, “Living Your Childhood Dreams”, he asks if people realized that that wasn’t really what the speech was about at all. (I don’t want to give it away.) But he was absolutely correct in that the lesson he actually was trying to impart was learned by the audience.
Most of us want to get along with one another, want to see eye-to-eye, and want to appreciate each other’s differences – or at least, want people to do so with us. Instead of announcing “this is my approach!”, calmly explain how your approach is a good one. Bring people into whatever you’re doing and show them how it’s good. Invite people for Shabbos and show them how you live. It’s a lot harder to be judgmental of someone whom you know or someone who’ve you spent a Shabbos with. For example, on a thread suggesting how to “heal the rift within Orthodoxy”, it was suggested to have an exchange program between yeshivos of different types. Whether that is feasible or not does not matter; it is certainly feasible to have at one’s Shabbos table people of all different types, or in one’s shul, or to simply stand on the street and talk for a bit. You don’t need to have a discussion about a controversial subject, and even if you have such a discussion, it can be had while respecting why each side takes a certain view even if one disagrees for themselves.
The best way to effect change in our communities is rather simple: Live it.
…and, uh, oh yeah – don’t forget about the Shabbaton. :)
* “I wanted to change the world, but I realized it was too large of a task for one person, so I tried to change my community. That was also too hard, so I tried to change my family. That was also too hard, so I decided to try and change myself. And though it was very hard, I finally changed myself. And once I changed myself, I discovered my family changed, the community changed, and the entire world changed.”
Note that I didn’t belittle her at all, though it might sound like it from the post. I don’t think she took it badly at all, either, but rather took to heart the point without feeling like I was attacking her in any way.
If you think you know what the questioner was really trying to ascertain, it’s no crime to answer accordingly. If you guessed wrong, you’ll know right away.
There’s no point, though, in belittling the questioner for being superficial. Doing that could harm the chances for a shidduch even more than naming the shirt color would.
Belle – I agree with Bob. People call with all sorts of questions for shidduchim, and unless the question is patently offensive, I answer them (how much does she weigh, what size does she wear). When the questions are, in my opinion, superficial or off-base, I file that away in case the subject calls me. Sometimes I volunteer that information (the questions asked) to the subject inquired about. In my opinion, the questions a person asks is as good a judge of his values as is anything else and can be used to decide whether to go forward with a shidduch as well by the other side. Caveat: I have been asked questions by people that seem extremely brief. In these cases I assume that most of their questions have been answered by others and they need just a little bit of supplemental info from me. No judgment there.
Just to clarify, the parenthetical Q’s were the ones that are offensive, not the ones you answer, correct? :)
In my opinion, the questions a person asks is as good a judge of his values as is anything else and can be used to decide whether to go forward with a shidduch as well by the other side.
Absolutely. See, this is why I’m not a writer – that’s part of what I was trying to say above in my comment. :)
DY – the point is, when someone asks you for info they are not asking for your opinion. the fact that he wears colored shirts, but you don’t think this should matter, is not what she is asking. she wants a yes or no, not your opinion on how the world works.
While fair, at the same time, I don’t have to answer her question on her terms. I can answer however I see fit, hang up on her, or answer her way.
I think people are getting away from what the point of the story was and why I responded as I did. Too much of what people do is done because “well, that’s how it’s done”. I originally had written in opposing general examples, but this lady called while I was writing the post, so I thought it apropos. People *do* need to realize what is and isn’t an important difference, and even within what they find important, it’s only as important as other people make it as well.
G makes the point well above. Think of it this way: If a person is looking for a person who values learning very much in addition to his profession, they might have it ingrained that such a person typically wears a white shirt. Or that people wearing white shirts place more of an emphasis on this. Whether that’s true or not can be debated to no end, but certainly the question itself is a superficial one that is used to symbolize something as opposed to a meaningful one, particularly when not everyone thinks it is of a value. (Does he take his learning seriously, for example. She asked that as well, and I was very happy to answer it.)
The best way of viewing my response is as a lesson/question to the woman: Do you realize what exactly you are asking? If not, okay. If so, do you mean it is actually important (in which case I’ll probably tell my friend that I got a call about a girl he’s probably not interested in) or do you think it’s symbolic, in which case what are you really trying to ask, and ask me that.
I agree with Bob. People call with all sorts of questions for shidduchim, and unless the question is patently offensive, I answer them (how much does she weigh, what size does she wear). When the questions are, in my opinion, superficial or off-base, I file that away in case the subject calls me. Sometimes I volunteer that information (the questions asked) to the subject inquired about. In my opinion, the questions a person asks is as good a judge of his values as is anything else and can be used to decide whether to go forward with a shidduch as well by the other side. Caveat: I have been asked questions by people that seem extremely brief. In these cases I assume that most of their questions have been answered by others and they need just a little bit of supplemental info from me. No judgment there.
the point is, when someone asks you for info they are not asking for your opinion. the fact that he wears colored shirts, but you don’t think this should matter, is not what she is asking. she wants a yes or no, not your opinion on how the world works. if you feel her question or the value judgment she is making based on the info is silly, that’s something else. to her, this obviously matters. that is a reality. you may take issue with the importance she places on this issue, but calling it “superficial” might in its own right be called, well…superficial. could it be superficial in the very same sense of the word that you use it on her: she obviously feels it significant, and the possibility is that you do not understand her point of view, and have judged her to be silly because of that?
The idea could be that a person might subjectively read a particular meaning into a thing or event.
Non-white shirts might be a negative factor to someone who regards white shirts as a necessary indicator of frumkeit.
but to some people such things are symbolic of other things, whether you agree or not.
what in the world does that even mean? To some people soemthing is symbolic of something else? But to others it is not? So in essence the thing that we are trying to prove may or may not even be a reality?
really, i am confused by the wording of this statement.
I answered the question, actually; I was merely making a point, in particular in regard to how the question was asked. If anything, I added to the answer in a way that is important to the person asking: Had I simply answered “colored shirts” with no explanation they would have had a skewed response based on their ‘understanding’ of the boy.
As a note, it is *certainly* superficial, however much a person may think it symbolic of other things, and that point was clearly made in regards to the boy being asked about. If the lady wished to know about the boy and what hashkafos he values, she was perfectly able to ask those things; she did this to an extent and got the answers she wanted. The shirt part is meaningless and superficial, however “symbolic”.
i think it is rude of you to refuse to say what color shirt the fellow wears. You may think it is superficial – and may bully your caller into saying so – but to some people such things are symbolic of other things, whether you agree or not.
And we do judge people. In fact in this post a judgment was made that people who care about dress are superficial. But there are many reasons to care about dress where superficiality does not come into play.
Absolutely. Even while using that example, I’m not suggesting that there’s something wrong with people caring about what clothes a person wears – but that it has to get back to the underlying point of it, and not just “what color is his shirt”. It’s simply a good reminder of why a particular judgment is important – not because of the guideline used, but what it’s used for.
Really understanding another point of view takes a lot of work, but perhaps this learning and understanding coupled with chesed holds the key.
Exactly. In our house, we’ve had (for example) discussions with our guests on different ways of life. Often, I’ll find myself adamantly defending a way of life with which I don’t necessarily agree because it’s important to see the other side of the coin, too. While I may not agree with it, it certainly has its merits and positives.
Bob – Excellent comment. Thank you.
Judgments of people should be provisional, not final. That is, when we use shortcut methods to size someone up, the results are not the last word. Provisional judgments are all subject to revision as the real facts, old or new, are discovered. We especially ought to notice when people change; not noticing that is a form of laziness.
I like the thrust of this post, which I see as focusing on our own acceptance of others.
The difficulty is that we do see things as hierarchical and there are real conflicts. So much so that the Mesillas Yesharim suggests that you use this hierarchical thinking to improve your Avodas Hashem. That is you should focus on how bad you will feel if a person that you thought was spiritually lower than you turns out to have earned a higher place than you in the World to Come. And that’s the second highest level!
And we do judge people. In fact in this post a judgment was made that people who care about dress are superficial. But there are many reasons to care about dress where superficiality does not come into play.
So what’s the answer? One answer might be to recognize that when two people or groups get together there will be conflicts at some level. Our job is to balance the Emes/Din as we see it with Shalom/Chesed, but to recognize that there are legitimate conflicts in any two views.
For me Rebbetzin Heller’s motto of what can I give, what can I learn is helpful. No matter what the conflict we can always give to and learn from another person. Really understanding another point of view takes a lot of work, but perhaps this learning and understanding coupled with chesed holds the key.