It had been a somewhat emotionally, rhetorically exhausting couple of weeks for active BT bloggers. Or, at least, for this one. Let me explain it this way: I’m a member of a little chevra who email each other on a weekly basis talking about what they’re doing in terms of outreach. (Yeah, an Aish thing. I know.) Not usually having much to say, I finally cooked up a corker of an email talking about my Jewish blogging work of late. It ended with this paragraph:
This is time-consuming work, and I doubt that I will be able to keep up with all the mischief. It is also very depressing, and tremendously challenging; I am not a kiruv professional, after all. I don’t have all the answers, but I do have over 20 years of being frum and learning in my pocket and thank God a good bit of dialectical and analytical skill. It’s really important to balance this sort of swim in the muck with a healthy dose of Jewish family life, davening and learning — because it does not provide the kind of feel-good chizuk you get from a Partners in Torah chavrusa or the like. I sincerely welcome any sort of suggestions or support . . .
Well, how nice for me. In fact, I didn’t get any “suggestions or support” from the group. No one responded to my email. In fact, a few people on the email list whom I met within the next week told me I was probably wasting my time. They thought getting the email addresses of strangers on airplanes and secretaries’ Jewish boyfriends was a better use of effort. Maybe they’re right. It’s hard to tell if anyone’s listening, especially when people you think perhaps are listening the hardest — the intense, brilliant, conflicted friend who introduced me to this blog, for instance, and who recently announced a jump off the deep end of frumkeit — are not moved at all.
Thank God for Shabbos.
Shortly before Shabbos we got a call from the new Aish yeshiva that opened a few blocks from my house. Could I help shore up the minyan erev Shabbos? I have never davened there. I… don’t like BT davening, okay? I worked hard for years so that I could sit at the adults’ table. I now pass for a lifer wherever I go, and I traverse the Internet with my “brilliant,” purple-tinged encomia to and defense of frum life, a self-appointed dean of orthodox Internet polemics. But of course I couldn’t say no; there was a need and I was duty-bound to do what I could to meet it. (My eighth grade son begged off.)
I got there and my heart sank. It was exactly what I thought I’d left behind. Gosh, have kids forgotten how to put on a coat and tie since the mid-80’s? These haircuts! Where do you even get a hat like that?!
But little by little I melted. It just started to feel right. They asked me to daven kabbolos Shabbos, and — for Heaven’s sake, yes! — in no time at all there they were, dancing in a circle! Dancing in a circle! I would have run for the door if I were in their place — but they didn’t! They were so enthusiastic! No one was making them do it. It was spontaneous excitement, and dancing was something they knew how to do. They were young, they were full of, yes, spiritual energy. They had gotten here themselves, they could walk out any time they wanted, but they were spending Shabbos here, and I was at the front of the room leading them.
All the nasty remarks, the cynicism, the blackness of the Internet attacks and the angry emailing; all my coiled up responses, triangulations, rationalizations — this is what it really is: People who want joy in their lives, want to get closer to Hashem, want to be better people. They are not interested, not today, in the anger and bitterness of those who have left this behind and are aghast that others could find it satisfying… the politics of frum institutions, and not so frum ones… the battles of virtual egos in the ether… the hunger for scandal, hypocrisy and failure. And I am not merely pointing fingers at other people’s “bitter” blogs. I generate plenty of this myself. What percentage of my contributions here is angry, disappointed, cynical? How have I gone from enthusiastic beginner, to perfectly presentable professional BT, to scowling, tired old cynic? Is that progress?
These young guys were pounding the table with excitement and joy and love because with the help of Aish HaTorah they were getting the chance to reconnect with something good they knew was in them and that they wanted passionately to let out and to live. They may have had disappointments ahead, clashes with reality, dashed expectations, broken hearts. But that’s not about becoming frum. That’s about life. But a life with all these things, yet with meaning, and hope, and spirit, and a relationship with one’s Maker — that’s a life, with all its reversals, that is worth living.
In fact, the one thing I got right in my email was that it is all hopeless — all the blogging, all the crossed pens, all the melodrama — if you can’t or won’t log off and live a real brick-and-mortar Jewish life. Living it in the moment, turning off the hyperspace drive, taking in what Hashem has given to me, is in fact my hardest challenge.
And sometimes I try so hard to write something special, something by which I hope certain readers will be touched and affected. Yet from time to time the work and the strain and the artifice show through in the piece, all too readily. I want those people to cry when they read it, but that does not work.
It only works if you cry when you write it.
A couple of comments.
1) What happens in the U.S. is often different than what happens in Israel.
2) People are treated differently at different stages of life.
Therefore, a married person as compared to a single person, a working person as compared to a student. Overall, the concern over haredi Kiruv should be greater over the effects of the younger single person in Israel than the older married person in the U.S.
Interestingly, both Rabbis were Israeli. The first was Israeli born, raised and educated who then moved to the U.S. in his 20s. The second Rabbi I mentioned was born in America but studied in Israeli yeshivot, received his semicha in Israel from an Israeli Rabbi and still lives and works in Israel. But you’re determined that your view of Charedi kiruv is accurate, and there is obviously nothing I can do to persuade you that your view is at least inaccurate with regard to some Rabbis, so what else can I say?
DK wrote:
So you are saying that they went to one of the haredi leaders (Gedolim) of that time period, and rely on that psak. This hardly refutes what I was saying.
I agree with you that Aish is associated with the charedei camp, I was just pointing out that Rav Elyashiv is not their posek. However, as everyone pointed out, there is no assiduous deception about it.
It’s just what you frame in a very negative way, that someone from the black-hat yeshivah world is reaching out to other Jews, I frame in a very positive way.
It does?
The spiritual method has something to say about the limits of science.
“The scientific method has nothing to say about spiritual matters, though.”
For me, it says something about their worthiness on reliance on spiritual matters as well. It demonstrates a commitment to faith as fantasy, and to fantasy as reality.
The scientific method has nothing to say about spiritual matters, though.
David, sorry, I didn’t answer your question about Rosenblum or Rabbi Horowitz…I don’t really understand it…unless you don’t allow for the idea that the exception proves the rule.
Fern R,
A couple of comments.
1) What happens in the U.S. is often different than what happens in Israel.
2) People are treated differently at different stages of life.
Therefore, a married person as compared to a single person, a working person as compared to a student. Overall, the concern over haredi Kiruv should be greater over the effects of the younger single person in Israel than the older married person in the U.S.
David, you wrote,
“Actually, I don’t know that they ever asked him. In 1994, Rav Berkowitz told me he had spoken to Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach about coed Discovery and Fellowships, and that he felt he was the only major posek in Jerusalem that understood something about the mindset of secular Jews with whom Aish is dealing.”
So you are saying that they went to one of the haredi leaders (Gedolim) of that time period, and rely on that psak. This hardly refutes what I was saying.
“Also, don’t you think that public figures such as Yonasan Rosenblum or Rabbi Horowitz, who work for Agudas Yisrael projects, have spoken to the Torah leaders about their participation on the internet?”
Ron,
For me, scientific method is clarity. That is not to say that it answers everything, or even in many of the important existential questions, all that much. But…the other side to that, from where I am standing, and where I would advise others to stand, is that when any group dismisses scientific method, it is clear that they aren’t correct. And this has logical and larger ramifications.
You know…I’m not 100% Orthodox but I have worked for a kiruv organization that was decidedly not MO, so I feel I have some “insider” perspectives on what my boss and coworkers thought about these sorts of issues. And since I haven’t “drunk the kool-aid” (from the perspective of the anti-Haredi) I feel I have an unbiased opinion about what Haredi outreach workers think about kiruv. I don’t have to guess or speculate, I *know* what they think because they told me and I saw their behavior.
Overwhelmingly, the Rabbis and kiruv workers I knew at my job would first and foremost would like every Jew to be “Orthodox” within the bounds of the mainstream understanding of what halacha says. It would be the “cherry on top” for all Jews to follow their particular flavor of Judaism, but they were really perfectly happy if a Jew they invited to their Shabbos table or learned with became Orthodox according to the normative standard.
Once, the last part of a get was being performed in our conference room. The Rabbi who was presiding over things only had a goatee, not a full beard. I (ignorantly) exclaimed (in private) to my boss that “the Rabbi doesn’t have a beard!” My boss defended the Rabbi and said he was within the bounds of halacha and widely respected for his knowledge of Jewish divorce laws and he deserved my utmost respect.
I’ve also heard a Haredi Rabbi advise a man whose wife was against him growing a beard that the man should continue to shave his face with an electric razor unless/until his wife approved of a beard. The Rabbi told the man that he should do everything possible within the bounds of accepted halacha to make his wife happy.
My experiences have made it clear to me that many/most Haredi kiruv workers are not interested in forcing people into their particular mold of Judaism, but rather helping people to be Torah observant in order to be happier and have more positive interactions with those around them.
DK wrote:
Wrong. Aish stopped administering Speed-dating precisely because Rab Elyashiv said no. They no longer offer speed dating themselves.
I stand corrected. In my day they were pushing Speed-dating in the biggest way, relying on other poskim.
“Co-ed seminars and Fellowships in Jerusalem.â€
Do we know that Rabbi Elyashiv said no EVEN for kiruv purposes?
Actually, I don’t know that they ever asked him. In 1994, Rav Berkowitz told me he had spoken to Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach about coed Discovery and Fellowships, and that he felt he was the only major posek in Jerusalem that understood something about the mindset of secular Jews with whom Aish is dealing. I understood from my conversation with him that it was a simple matter that other poskim in Jerusalem would not agree. For this reason, they had previously set up a program called “Aleinu†to administer Discovery instead of being under the auspices of “Aish HaTorah.â€
My information about Rav Elyashiv’s view is based on a question asked by R. Baruch Chait decades ago. He wanted to give a concert in Europe for kiruv, which would have to be a mixed event to attract secular Jews. Rav Elyashiv nixed the idea. In Chofetz Chaim circles, this is viewed as a classic example of the principle that the ends do not justify the means in kiruv, i.e., we cannot do something that is Halachically unjustified although we expect to gain for the cause of kiruv by such actions.
This is a huge issue. Of course, every organization looks to their own poskim, but they have to be consistent.
And none of the people on Beyondbt are living according to the hardline B’nai Torah leaders OR THEY WOULDN’T BE ON THE INTERNET IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Okay, let’s say I’m not, but I know plenty of people in my community, our dearest friends, who are, by their own admission and estimation, happier, better people, and closer to G-d precisely because they became chareidi BTs. This is something I’ve discussed with a number of people. And some of these people have told me that they feel it wouldn’t have worked out for them any other way.
But anyway, I discussed with my Rav about participating in such internet activities as Beyond BT, and perhaps to your surprise, DK, he was enthusiastically supportive.
Also, don’t you think that public figures such as Yonasan Rosenblum or Rabbi Horowitz, who work for Agudas Yisrael projects, have spoken to the Torah leaders about their participation on the internet?
“If we’re unable to handle the negative viewpoints of others, then perhaps that may say something about how stable or shaky the ground we’re standing on is. And then, we’d better look at it if it’s shaky.”
I think it depends on the situation and on the person.
On the situation, in that not every “negative viewpoint” is a direct attack on the fundamentals of Torah faith, and that there is no single rule for each situation.
Also, there are different types of people or stages in life. Someone who has struggled, may want to enter the phase of “inspiration”, and that is understandable(I think of it, in part, like Yaakov Avinu wanting to “relax” at the end of his life). I, though, enjoy the intellectual challenge of the negative viewpoints(e.g., on social issues), because I can often reframe them without completely challenging the basic assumptions.
The other day, someone I spoke to had a host of complaints against the Charedi community. I validated and sympathized(I think that there’s much more freedom to do that privately), but didn’t argue at all because I know what the struggle feels like and identify with it.
I did point out that there were positive changes made over the years(eg, in education), and told him if he came back in a year from now, I would show him more changes. He insisted that there would be no changes, but now, he was being unreasonable and he knew it(although he’s a reasonable person in general). I personally like this type of discussion, but I suppose it depends on your taste, and on each situation. Of course, I like(and need) chizuk and positive discussion too!
DK, daas torah is a hard concept to assimilate, and as you are well aware there is some controversy about its genesis. And you have, after all, argued in the past about the (theoretical) benefit of MO kiruv which, presumably, is not benighted by the problem.
But I am deducing by your omission of a direct answer to my question — i.e., a yes or a no — that the answer is “no.” People who want to be keep the mitzvos will do so regardless of their issues with hard concepts like daas torah… mean rabbis… hypocritical frummies… and unanswered prayers.
And those who do not want to will not do so, regardless of the brocha and love that so clearly exists in their lives, their own good hearts that do not lie but to which they will not listen, and whatever other truths about God and His Creation — and the Torah — stare them in the face.
Believe me, DK (I know you do), I wish I did not live in a fog of denial and cognitive dissonance. I wish everything in the world around me and the world within me added up. It does not. But please do not claim for the “skeptics,” much less the merely miserable mumblers, some burning solar clarity, a laser-like focus on self-awareness and bias-free lifestyle choices based on “haredism” straw men. There’s no there there.
David Schallheim wrote,
“I can think of three things off the top of my head where Aish does not follow Rav Elyashiv’s psak:…2) Speed-dating”
Wrong. Aish stopped administering Speed-dating precisely because Rab Elyashiv said no. They no longer offer speed dating themselves.
“Co-ed seminars and Fellowships in Jerusalem.”
Do we know that Rabbi Elyashiv said no EVEN for kiruv purposes?
Ron wrote,
“And, DK, have you met people who went to Aish HaTorah, and became frum and then gave it up, or who would have become frum, but concluded that they could not because of the “Daas Torah†issue?”
I absolutely know people who have come to find daas Torah an exceptionally problematic issue. It is a foreign concept to western people, and should remain so. Daas Torah is exceptionally problematic not only in terms of rejecting science, but in terms of paths promoted, and in terms of paths discouraged.
I don’t find this a small issue at all, and don’t think most secular and liberal Jews would either if they understood its widespread prevalence in the kiruv (since kiruv is dominated by the black-hatters) world, never mind its existence.
DK–
In my experience Aish rabbis and teachers aren’t trying to hide anything. They just think it’s wise to focus on the basics first, and to get into their personal hashkafa only if/when it becomes relevant. Personally, I agree with their philosophy when it comes to that. I am happy to discuss my more “hard core/extreme” beliefs when asked, and a quick look at our bookshelf would give a knowledgable guest a pretty good idea of our family’s hashkafa, but I wouldn’t mention that to my friends who are taking their first steps towards observance. Not because I have something to hide, but because I don’t want them to think that my views are the only views, or that all religious people are this extreme (not that I would be considered extreme in general, but still).
Of course Aish rabbis will tend to promote their own hashkafa once students are more observant. They believe that their hashkafa is correct. Still, there is not magic “hareidi potion” that they slip into students’ food–the students are grownups who make their own decisions. I know guys who’ve come out of a half a year of study at Aish and ended up as dati leumi, chassidic, masorti (the israeli kind, not conservative), etc. There are no locks on the outside of the doors, and students who find that they disagree with the Aish hashkafa are free to go elsewhere and generally do.
I can’t speak for DK, but a Slifkin may not be the “deal killer”, just the straw that broke the camel’s back. When I get into a car accident, I do go back into the car, but I have a little less confidence in my and other people’s driving, and I’m a little more watchful. I personally need to see BT issues addressed from many points of view, including the “dark places”, because if everyone on this blog is expressing joyfulness and always being in a better place at every step of his/her journey, then I suspect they’re either in denial, choosing not to be honest at all times, or are still in their first couple years of being a BT. I’m fairly new to this site (a couple months), and have been reading some older posts, including yours, Ron, where people were somewhat upset with you for feeling that you don’t belong living in Israel. Though your point of view may have been a little “dark”, it was very valid, was worthy of expression on this blog, and opened up many important issues for people. If we’re unable to handle the negative viewpoints of others, then perhaps that may say something about how stable or shaky the ground we’re standing on is. And then, we’d better look at it if it’s shaky.
That being said, your post was great, Ron, and makes me wish there was a BT minyan where I live, because being taken back to when I was young and “high” on frumkeit could be just what the doctor ordered.
>>People need to know that when Rabbi Elyashiv bans something, for Aish HaTorah, it is gone.
DK,
What, for example?
I can think of three things off the top of my head where Aish does not follow Rav Elyashiv’s psak:
1) Honoring intermarried donor in public.
2) Speed-dating
3) Co-ed seminars and Fellowships in Jerusalem.
And, DK, have you met people who went to Aish HaTorah, and became frum and then gave it up, or who would have become frum, but concluded that they could not because of the “Daas Torah” issue? They had no trouble with Torah MiSinai, keeping Shabbos, kashrus, taharas hamishpacha, but the deal killer was Slifkin? I’m being a little facetious but in all seriousness, is that the problem here?
“The beginners could hardly have any illusions.”
Not once they are there, no.
“But it’s not as if they feature MO-looking people.”
Sometimes they have pictures even of secular looking people, and I mean authors of articles. http://www.aish.com/societyWork/women/Having_It_All.asp
“It is not as if anyone with half a brain can click more than one link there before realizing, hey, these guys are orthodox Jews.”
Orthodox, maybe. Not ultra-Orthodox. Not guys who abide by the B’nai Torah Gadol Hador who says some pretty anti-secular and anti-western things that most American Jews would not just disagree with, but rather, they would fine INSANE.
People need to know that when Rabbi Elyashiv bans something, for Aish HaTorah, it is gone. And for Aish HaTorah, that includes scientific method if the B’nai Torah leaders says so.
And that is absolutely not clear at all from the Aish website.
Thank you, R’ David. But I must note that we do have one engaged and passionate friend here who is not anonymous, R’ David. And notwithstanding a writing style that is, for some reason, out of sync with a very supple and talented mind, I remain committed to that engagement, for reasons we have discussed here often and recently, and I say this without the slightest intent of condescension.
DK, Aish doesn’t hide anything, assiduously or otherwise. Some Aish rabbis are black-hatters, and black hats are what you see. All of the baalei batim at Aish the last two Shabboses — mixed in with the beginners — are Passaic “yeshivish” frum guys like me, as are the Aish rabbis. The beginners could hardly have any illusions. Most of them are actually more relaxed in their approach to how they present themselves, but if there is someone who has attended an Aish program more than once who was under the impression that Aish HaTorah is not “ultra-orthodox” — whatever wing you like, DK — it’s not because anything was hidden from them.
The Aish.com website, for instance, is absolutely meant to appeal to a wide range of Jews, and indeed orthodox rabbis’ pictures are not found on the front page. But it’s not as if they feature MO-looking people. They want the graphics to cause people to relate to those depicted (these are stock photos) as themselves — regular Jewish Americans. It is not as if anyone with half a brain can click more than one link there before realizing, hey, these guys are orthodox Jews. There’s no hiding going on.
Ron, great post!
Yasher Koach that you were able to get them up and dancing! Your voice training was not for naught.
Yes, in general, it’s a relief to put away the cynicism of the internet j-blogosphere. I have found that looking at blogs just encourages me to have a jaundiced view of my community. Because of blogs, instead of looking for inspiration from people of elevated values who are walking the talk, I find myself looking for confirmation of the ‘dark chareidi.’
You know the story of R. Eliezer Silver, who met a man in the DP camps in Europe who was “angry with G-d†after the Holocaust. The man related that he saw an Orthodox Jew take food portions from starving prisoners to spend a few minutes with his smuggled, secret sefer Tehillim. The inmates lined up for hours to use the Tehillim. Rav Silver said: “You dummy! Why do you look at the one who took, look at those who gave!â€
I learned very early that you have to choose carefully who your role models will be. Instead of letting the anonymous ranting of bitter people on the internet get to us, we have to look for excellent role models.
The Jewish Heritage Center is not right-wing haredi, and NJOP is Modern Orthodox. So the chance that you would not feel such pressures ishardly surprising.
As for Aish, it depends when and where. But they are ultimately Left-wing ultra-Orthodox, and hide that fact assiduously.
Chabad is a different animal altogether.
Maybe I should feel insulted, but I’ve been to many Kiruv functions and lectures including: The Jewish Heritage Center, Chabad, Aish, and NJOP and no one has tried to make me Haredi. Maybe I need to be taller or something?
And none of the people on Beyondbt are living according to the hardline B’nai Torah leaders OR THEY WOULDN’T BE ON THE INTERNET IN THE FIRST PLACE.
No, Ron, I am saying not saying that. I am saying that those things can be accomplished without haredism. And I am saying that haredism does not necessarily lead to those things.
What good are mere counterexamples when the theory seems so glorious to the theoretician?
So much for that.
The thing is, DK, that the young men I encountered at Aish are well aware that you can, in fact, conceptualize and even institutionalize what we might call free-standing basic monotheistic concepts. Most of them have been exposed to various attempts to do so, either through various secular or religious schools of thought, religion, etc. — as I was.
Yet that Shabbos, they were at Aish — looking for something concrete to help them realize a life that will enable them to live a life that can provide these things. For this is what Judaism, practiced properly, does.
You can yell it as many times as you want and reprint news stories about screwed up haredim from whom you generalize wildly and irresponsibly, DK; you can publish the anonymous chicken-dreck scribblings of fellow Judaism drop-outs with just enough learning to mislead and obfuscate; you can focus on preposterously obscure and irrelevant aspects of the complex subculture that makes up strictly orthodox Judaism…
But your saying that those of us who are here, including me, have “NOT” experienced more joy in their lives, “NOT” become better people, and “NOT” brought us closer to God is just…
Pathetic.
Hmmm. Not sure what you mean by “Haredim” (do you live in Israel, DK?) but those Jews on this blog who are religious, right wing certainly don’t seem joyless and dysfunctional.
Chareidim share the core ideas of Judaism with other religious Jews, so it’s normal to expect them to express such ideas.
“People who want joy in their lives, want to get closer to Hashem, want to be better people.”
I find it interesting that when pushed, the pro-kiruv camp points to basic, general Monotheistic ideas as the point of haredi-kiruv, instead of those ideas unique to haredism.
But those ideas are not what the kiruv-critics object to. In fact, the objections include that haredisizing secular and liberal Jews ultimately DOESN’T bring joy to their lives, DOESN’T make them better people, and consequently, and DOESN’T bring them closer to G-d, but rather, brings them closer to something much more specific, joyless, dysfunctional, and foreign.
We are also old, tired and cynical. I think these bochurim can do kiruv with us. Ron Coleman, if you are connected to the Aish yeshiva and know of bochurim who need Shabbos seudas, please let me know (we also live nearby). Maybe my husband will not have to sing Shabbos zemiros alone.
Ron,
This is amazing stuff and I think it jives very well with the point you are often trying to make: put aside all the thorny issues that are on the periphery and sink in to the meat.
Your disquiettude with the whole struggle is, IMHO, a product of the arguments of many who are not really looking for anything aside from bringing others down and the reality that these are not such simple issues.
Bottom line, I’ve seen you out there and, as you know, I think you’re making a difference.
Thank you both.
Really cool post Ron.
I don’t know, maybe it’s because I am a slow moving BT but I love finding new Kiruv centers to daven in as opposed to a sea of black hats. This type of scene really gives me inspiration. (And I’m not much for the uniform anyway) It’s probably why I live in a small community anyway.
Great post Ron!
Nice, Ron. The real thing.
I cannot tell you how strongly I sympathize. (Okay, and identify. There, are you happy?!) ;-)