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Do BT Parents Risk Kids Off the Derech?

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I knew I was in trouble when the reporter for a Jewish publication started off his interview with me as follows: “So, you wrote “What Do You Mean, You Can’t Eat in My Home?” because you became religious and your family is not, right? We had one orthodox relative, my mother’s brother, and he refused to come to my wedding even though I was marrying a Jewish girl. Ridiculous. My mother hasn’t spoken to him since.”

Well, now I understood where the reporter was coming from. Throughout the interview, his anger towards the BT/secular family tug of war oozed out in his questions. And then, he really nailed me with this one: “You see how much pain you caused your family when you became religious. Do you ever wonder how you’ll react if one of your children grows up to follow a different religious path than you want for them?”

Subtext of his question — “are you prepared for pay back time when one of your kids does to you what you’ve done to your parents?”

Ouch.

Of course I’m not prepared for this possibility — chas v’shalom! My husband and I have given up financial security, family vacations, the pleasure of a big suburban house and a yard, never mind all the relaxed get-togethers we could have had with our family, and the non kosher restaurants we no longer visit. If it were not for paying yeshiva tuition since preschool, we could retire at age sixty, with enough money to be comfortable. Now my husband figures he’ll be working till age 90, because there IS no retirement fund. These sacrifices we would make again in a heartbeat, because look at the rewards! Priceless! But after all this, what do you mean, they might choose another religious path?! Impossible!

I gave the reporter the answer he was looking for — “I would, of course, be devastated. I hope, if that event should ever transpire, that we would be able to communicate about it in such a way that we remained a close family.”

The interview came to a close, and I have been thinking about his question ever since. I read in frum publications like the Yeted, Jewish press and Mispacha all of the angst about frum kids off the derech. I reassure myself into magical thinking that our children have grown up with the kind of exposure to yiddishkeit we never had, and two parents who role model a committed frum life. They couldn’t possibly leave this behind. . . could they?

And then, I remember. It still shocks me. My children are FFB. They are as much at risk as any frum family doing everything right. Even when we’ve given every ounce of our resources towards pointing our children on a torah-observant path, there is no guarantee to BT parents that reads: “Given the financial and emotional investment you have made in your children, and the price you have paid in family upheaval, you are guaranteed frum grandchildren and plenty of nachas.”

Our children are shaped by us, but not in our control.

So, this is my honest answer to that reporter’s question.

I hope that I would NOT get bent out of shape if my second-born daughter married a real mensch who happens to wear a knit kippah and jeans instead of the black hat and white shirt her father wears, or if my first-born daughter falls in love with a Hassid who won’t eat my cooking unless I buy meat only from his butcher when they visited. I’d like to believe that if my exceptionally bright son announces to me when he’s all grown up that he wants to go directly to college after high school instead of the expected year or two of yeshiva in Israel, that we could find a “kosher” way for him to follow his professional dreams. Are my children still committed to the basics of Torah observance? Do they love being frum and do they look forward to raising children who will be? Do they love Hashem, and do they believe that Hashem loves them? These are the questions I hope I would ask. My job as their mom was to provide the foundation of a loving, Torah observant home, and a yeshiva education, from which they will carve their own journey.

If, G-d forbid, any one of my children chose to leave Torah observance all together, as that reporter insinuated could happen? My heart would be broken, just like I broke my parents’ heart when I left their secular derech. We would call in the professionals, pour our hearts out to Hashem, and never give up trying to bring that child back to the derech of Torah observance. I would not easily accept the notion of “as long as it makes you happy” — the romantic ideal of an unconditionally loving mother. I would storm the heavens with my prayers for their return to Torah. I daven every day for the nachas of watching our children grow up to build their own observant Jewish home, with Hashem’s blessings. Am I prepared for anything else? Absolutely not.

Azriela Jaffe is the author of “What Do You Mean, You Can’t Eat in My Home, A Guide to How Newly Observant Jews and their Lesser Observant Relatives Can Still Get Along”, which can be purchased at Barnes and Noble

71 comments on “Do BT Parents Risk Kids Off the Derech?”

  1. There are a lot of reasons why kids go off the derech. FFB parents deal with this as well as BT parents. The simple answer is that if things are going very wrong at home, kids will want to leave, and that is universal. If every night parents are screaming at each other, or throwing things, or if some type of abuse is happening (verbal abuse being damaging too), a kid’s first reaction will be, “Get me outta here.” If there is nowhere else to go, the kid will head for the street. If the home is not a haven from the world but a living hell then the kid will just run. The best way to keep kids from leaving home in general is to make home the place of refuge from the world’s blows; if it’s just the opposite then kids are not going to stay.

  2. Azriela,

    O WOW!!! After reading your post above about the book (where you addressed me) I realize you are the author!!! Very good book indeed, but, as I said above to Chaya H., if one is a Baal Teshuva who becomes more Frum than the other partner, I don’t know if the “mixed” marriage can work in all cases. I hope it can!

  3. Chaya H:

    I read the book, believe it or not, 6 years ago (I took it out of the library in Bay Terrace, I believe). It opened my eyes, but, remember, I wasn’t as Frum then as I am now! I’m not sure that book can really work in a home where one of the partners is MUCH more Frum than the other one. Still, you can’t rush it with your family. Each person, on his/her own, will find Hashem step by step, we hope.

  4. Azriela,

    Welcome to the blog! My brother (not frum) actually bought your book (What do you mean…) for my Mom and she really liked it. My family had Shabbos lunch at your house a couple of years ago when you were working on the book. It was much needed. Thanks and sorry to be OT.

    PS It is important to take anything you read in the media with a grain of salt, there is so much that inaccurate and plenty of Lashan Hora.

  5. Azriela, I would agree and only extend your comments to being interviewed by any reporter for any purpose! They always get it wrong.

    Jaded, thanks for the flattering and brilliantly brave comment, but I will leave the translation of towering works of Torah erudition to people actually erudite in Torah!

  6. Azriella wrote that pre-OTD/at risk kids
    need to
    feel that they can develop as individuals, with a bit of rebellion in the mix?

    I think that this is essential for adults and teens, FFBs and BTs alike.

    Years ago I gave a talk @ the JHC’s Long Island Center entitled “Hasidism; Reformation or Reaffirmation?” The upshot was that as a movement it was both. I think that for many an essential component of the dynamic that drove their return to Yiddishkeit was not being “rebellious” but being revolutionary, of being part of a counter-culture that would shake up the establishment and it’s wholly inadequate and corrupt way of doing things.

    IMO this is why the Yeshiva world from the mid-40s to the early seventies was more vital and dynamic (and produced more outsatnding people) than it is today (despite being much smaller). Before it became the new “establishment” IT was a REVOLUTIONARY movement.

    Here’s a partial list of Jews of Genius over the last several centuries who revolutionized, reinvented and reinvigorated without betraying tradition:

    The Ba’al Shem Tov, the Kotzker Rebbe, RSRH, Rav Nachman, Rav Yisroel Salanter, Rav Chaim Brisker, his grandson RYBS, Sara Schnirer, Rav Meir Shapiro, Rav Kook, the Satmar Rebbe, Der Alter fun Nivardhok, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rav Kook and Rav Hutner.

    So much of what seems to be ancient, mass-movement Judaism today owes so much to these trailblazers that it’s hard to imagine that they were ever considered noncomformists much less visionary revolutionaries. But read your (unbiased) history and you’ll discover that nearly all were extremely controversial when they first burst upon the scene and met with stiff opposition. Some continue to be controversial today.

    Not that we can wave a wand and fabricate a visionary revolutionary leader out of thin air but as the OTD crisis grows to pandemic proportions cutting across all socioeconomic strata, denominations and scholarship levels it may be that this phenomenon represents more than a widespread social pathology. As an expression of a deep-seated dissatisfaction with Yiddishkeit in it’s current incarnation it may betoken a whole generation’s collective soul demanding a new movement, the next Chasidic/Mussar/Lomdishe fill-in-the-blank_____ revolution, a reinvented Yiddishkeit that speaks to their unique time and place while remaining firmly rooted in the Mesorah.

    The trick is to be conservative without being preservative, to be orthodox but not mere oxen pulling the yoke of popular opinion. Easier dreamed for than done.

  7. JT-R Wolbe’s book on parenting is a classic that IMO can be read over and over again. I would also reccomend R D A Twerski’s book on the same subject as well.

  8. Chaya and Martin: Thanks for the welcome to this fabulous community, and for the recommendation of my book, “Two Jews can still be a mixed Marriage”. You suggested picking up a copy of the book if this subject is relevant to people, so I wanted people on this listserve to know, the book is now out of print. You can purchase it directly from me ( any good author has a box in the basement), so email me if you are interested. I also want to tell you that this book was written in the early years of my marriage, when I was reform and my husband was conservative, and it’s the right book for any couple negotiating basic differences in level of observance in their marriage. It’s NOT the right book if you are already frum, with differences, as two jews is really oriented towards couples considering a change in observance as basic as “should we keep kosher and what will that look like?”, not, which yeshiva should we send our child to? Still, the principles in that book apply to all of us who are negotiating differences in our marriage, and what marriage does not have them? You can learn more about these books and my other book, “What do you mean, you can’t eat in my home?” at my website, http://www.azriela.com. Hope they can be helpful. I will be recommending this site to all the people I speak to in my travels!

  9. ROn and Jacob – on the topic of walking away from an interview – I’m the author of 13 books and I’ve been interviewed a zillion times. The WORST ones are when the interviewer couldn’t have been nicer, you hang up the phone thinking, wow, that should be great — AND THEN you read the article and you are either completely misquoted, or they take all that great info you passed it along and call it their own, and you are scarcely mentioned. And this is not a BT issue, this is the world of being a published author and being in the media. But that said, we authors just keep talking to the press because we believe in the books we’ve written, and you do what you gotta do to get the word out. . . and then you pray!

  10. Steve Brizel and David Linn thanks for the read R Wolbe’s parenting book literature advice. I’ve actually read that book twice.
    Basically there are a plethora of badly written Jewish fiction books. Some deep mussar stuff with a bitterly bland sense of English writing or some guys with ok writing skills but clearly no depth and only cotton candy oriented concepts. Hardly any mussar books out there written by authors with good English writing skills.So that’s why we need Alei Shure translated. Ron Coleman are you out there listening ?

  13. Be advised that this comment is not nearly serious enough for Beyond BT readers. Proceed with caution.

    Ron Coleman asked above:
    “’25 predisposing factors’ is such a complex concept that it has pretty limited predictive ability, wouldn’t we say? Or is there a hierarchy, perhaps?”

    BT (and other frum) parents need a new weapon in their fight for family sanity and against off-the-derech-ness. Yes, kids are not computers, although many spend long hours with them and are best friends with them. Still, a troubleshooting flow chart like this one (maybe less complex, but maybe not) can be a good model for a parents’ handy tool:
    http://www.fonerbooks.com/poster.pdf

    This format graphically shows the decision-making hierarchy suggested in Ron’s remark.

    In summary:
    Some worthy Jew should turn Rabbi Russell’s 25 factors, or somebody else’s factors, into a usable flow chart for parent decision-making.

  14. Azriela: Welcome to BeyondBT! _Two Jews Can Still Be a Mixed Marriage_ was a great resource for me when I was first married.

    Martin: Check out the above mentioned book, it would be appropriate for the situation you are describing. Good luck.

  15. Jacob, when you write a book, you talk to anyone who has noticed! Plus, once she agreed to the interview, if she’d cut it off — which may have been appropriate — she would have been skewered by the reporter.

  16. Not sure why the author felt obligated to give of her time to an obviously vindictive and mean-spirited journalist who ostensibly was more interested in taking shots at Mrs Jaffe and her lifestyle than looking to accomplish something value-added.

    I’m not writing this just to vent. While we need to exert effort in making a Kiddush HaShem at every opportune moment perhaps there are also times when walking away from the difficult types is the only course to take.

  17. Chana mentioned that Rabbi Russell lists 25 factors including: “living with a family that changes location often”. As with all socialogical factor studies, this statement would seem to need a ton of context. Is moving a cause or a result? If people cannot get along were they are and therefore they move, it could be the underlying inability to get along that is the issue and not the moveing per se. So I tend to agree with Ron that it would be preferrable to give a few factors that people can reasonbly isolate and focus on. (I am sure Rabbi Russell has a lot to say and I’d like to learn from him.)

  18. With all due respect to Rabbi Russell, who I’m sure is great, “25 predisposing factors” is such a complex concept that it has pretty limited predictive ability, wouldn’t we say? Or is there a hierarchy, perhaps? It would certainly be something I’d like to know.

  19. Like everything else, this thing requires our hishtadlus and tefilla and, most importantly, HaShem’s help. We can’t orchestrate everything just so on our own.

  21. David S,

    Rabbi Tatz makes a similar point to yours in “The Thinking Teenager’s Guide to Life” when he says that Avraham was the biggest rebel since it was basically he against the world.

  22. Azriella,

    Your response really moves me, because we are the same age and seem to have had very similar experiences with parents. For me, my parents don’t “approve” of my Torah lifestyle, but they have praised me for raising a beautiful family. Like I said, tho, they don’t attribute that to anything Jewish. So I guess I do have some approval, just not the fantasy one of having them “see the light” about becoming frum after all these years and singing zemiros with us!

    I long ago gave up seeking their approval, when I wanted to be frum — they were so harsh and I was previously so emotionally dependent on them– that at that time I grew up real fast and realized that I was never going to get their approval, and if I wanted this bad enough I had to just go for it regardless. I made an emotional break from my parents — a real alienation — it was a personal crisis. The best decision I made, however. But now I am not emotionally as needy of them and their approval anymore. I think, tho, my experience was a function of our relationship – they were quite controlling and I was a good little girl (not the rebellious type at all!).

    At some point we just have to accept our parents for who they are, with their limitations, and don’t seek things you won’t find, like their approval in that realm. They’ll still love you and love your kids to death!

  23. Charnie:
    The best help you can be to your friends is to be there for them. They don’t need you to be the expert, but they need you to be constant. Many families with off the derech kids are abandoned from many sides (neighbors, yeshivas, rabbaim, etc.)in addition to the rejection the kids themselves have usually been through. Just be strong in your friendship, and that will be the best gift.

    I was zoche to hear Rabbi Shimon Russel earlier this month lecturing on Off the Derech.
    The crowd that came to hear him (across the board hashkafically) seemed awed by his clarity and expertise on this issue. Unfortunately he would not give a contact number, saying he was too overwhelmed to take on any more. One comment he made stands out: he said there are numerous (more than 25) predisposing factors to Jews going off the derech. Among them are some surprises, such as living with a family that changes location often.

  24. M-Maybe it is because we raised daughters, but I think that once you send a kid away to high school of either gender, the parents are essentially writing checks and seeing their kids infrequently. IOW, parents really risk losing their role as educators if their son or daughter dorms or boards out of town. IIRC, R Y Bender’s Yeshivas Darchei Torah insists that high school bachurim go home once a month. I think that bachurim in Yeshivas Shaar HaTorah in KG can go home fairly frequently. I am aware that there is a Mishnah in Avos that advises one to exile oneself to a place of Torah, but one can ask whether that is applicable for all students in homes.

  25. I don’t agree with this “rebellion” point at all. Kids will be aware of strife over becoming BT’s, but if they don’t understand the qualitative difference between the life we left and the life we are leading today — which is about submission of oneself to Hashem, to the Torah, to the guidance of chachomim, to so much that is antithetical to rebellion, both symbolically and substantively — we are doing something very wrong in rearing them. If children whose lives are full of mitzvos and he rich fiber of Jewish life, including its dignity (something almost universally absent from contemporary no-frum life in the West) cannot see the contrast with that of their non-frum grandparents — who are to be treated with love and respect, of course, but whose lives patently do not contain these features — the issue is not “rebelliousness,” it is an utter failure of chinuch habonim on its most basic level.

    Uh, that’s my opinion.

  26. Steve,

    I’m really happy to hear this; it’s great news.

    I think many parents would feel that keeping their children closer to home is the better option. Each situation needs to be judged on its own merits, but I’m glad there is a choice.

  27. >>The question then is, what does “rebellion” look like, if a child will do so, while still staying frum?

    That’s a very big question indeed. It certainly depends a lot on our level of observance and commitment to Torah, where they’re coming from in their school and community.

    What I have in mind is trying to channel the spirit of rebellion to fight against insanity, injustice, and callousness. We could teach the Prophets to our children as true models of rebellion against the outrages of their society.

    Of course, we have to be careful not to criticize and condemn people, but we can show the ridiculousness of social pressures, such as fads in dress, putting others down to build yourself up, etc.

    Let’s make them rebels with a cause!

  29. In a sense, we rebelled against our parents’ upbringing (although some may see it only as an upgrade). If we didn’t have the courage of rebelliousness, how would we have had the guts to wear a kippah, eat kosher, dress modestly, etc. in front of all our lifelong friends and family?
    David, you say:
    Therefore, our children inherited the power of rebellion and fierce independence. Like it or not, we have to work harder to educate them according to their individual strengths to help them to achieve their own personal derech Hashem in their life. Otherwise, they are more likely than Yankel Shmuelevitz next door to rebel against a system that stifles them or rubs them the wrong way.

    And they will be prepared to rebel, just as we did.”

    The truth of your statement gives me shivers. The question then is, what does “rebellion” look like, if a child will do so, while still staying frum? Are we talking about changing the length of one’s skirt, or marrying someone who won’t eat by your hecksher, and so forth, and should we lighten up and allow more of this expansion and flexibility so that we don’t have so many truly off the derech at risk kids to worry about and our children, while remaining frum, feel that they can develop as individuals, with a bit of rebellion in the mix?

  30. Let me ask you guys something: What happens when the man of the house become more Frum than ever (over time, of course), and the wife & kids have been “kind-of” frum, but not to the level that Dad is becoming? How does Dad guide the family along when it comes to Shabbos observance and all the do’s and don’ts? Of course, one of the kids is now in Yeshiva for the 1st time, and is “catching on” because of what she is learning there.

    Marty

  31. Michoel-I picked up the collection of Rav Wolbe’s letters at a small store in Meah Shearim when we were recently in EY. It is called Igros UMictavim shel HaMashgiach ( Chelek Alef). It is a wonderful volume , even though the addressees are not included.

  32. Now my husband figures he’ll be working till age 90, because there IS no retirement fund.

    You mean you’ll be able to get out from under debt and have enough to retire by before 120!!! Wow, how do you guys do it? You must share your success with the rest of us!

  33. Just as we, as baalei teshuvah, had the power to change our beliefs and way of life, our children have inherited this power from us in a significant way.

    Rav Yaakov Kaminetzksy said: “We are living in a generation of baalei teshuvah. The reason there are so many baalei teshuvah is because man’s nature is to change his path in life continuously. In this generation, which is on such a lowly level that they cannot descend any lower, automatically, there are those who return to recognize the truth.”*

    In a sense, we rebelled against our parents’ upbringing (although some may see it only as an upgrade). If we didn’t have the courage of rebelliousness, how would we have had the guts to wear a kippah, eat kosher, dress modestly, etc. in front of all our lifelong friends and family?

    Therefore, our children inherited the power of rebellion and fierce independence. Like it or not, we have to work harder to educate them according to their individual strengths to help them to achieve their own personal derech Hashem in their life. Otherwise, they are more likely than Yankel Shmuelevitz next door to rebel against a system that stifles them or rubs them the wrong way.

    And they will be prepared to rebel, just as we did.

    * From: Daf Chizuk
    Zeirei Agudath Israel of America
    Sivan 5738, Volume 13

  34. David-I have Alei Shur, Mammarei Ymei Ratzon, and Rav Wolbe’s other works in the original. They are all superb and not that difficult to digest-including Alei Shur.

    Ruby-I agree with you 100%. However, when our daughters each requested that I learn either Shmiras HaLashon or a section from Ramban Al HaTorah every week with them every Shabbos, I was more than happy to agree with their requests.

  35. Steve,
    What is the collectoin of Rav Wolbe’s letters called? Where can I get hold of it? Thanks

  36. Jaded, you’re absolutely correct that frumkeit alone is not a substitute for connecting with our kids. But OTOH, fathers or mothers spending time learning with their kids is, as the PC world calls it, “quality” time. Just like playing ball with your kids is valuable time together, so is learning. My proof is in my family.

    Steve, after I looked up “WADR”, I feel you very well may be correct. The younger sister is also now in PS for completely different reasons. And these days, a PS junior high is no place for a frum kid to be in! Things have changed since we were all growing up.

  37. Steve,

    That is truly a great sefer and the footnotes in the english translation are excellent. JT, since you have been calling for some Alei Shur translation, you should check it out for a tast of Rav Wolbe’s insights, intellect and sensibility.

  38. Charnie-Based upon what you have said, this sounds like a family that is at risk, as opposed to a child at risk. WADR, if they respect you as a friend, they just might listen to a suggestion that they meet with R Horowitz, R Russell or Dr Pelcowitz,

  39. Azriela, I take your comments seriously, and perhaps I was just blessed with a good experience. It seems to comport with what I mostly see around me in terms of parents of BT’s (as opposed to the whole wide world out there), but obviously you and many others have encountered something else in a statistically significant (sort of — we’re all being anecdotal, here) dose. Even then, despite the roughest parental non-acceptance, I don’t see how “break your heart” comes into play as a matter of principle as opposed to a matter of ego. But I do understand how ego can make things that are not principled seem principled indeed.

    I think Jaded made a great point here. Being a good parent who’s clued into who his or her kids are is Job One, ahead of being able to teach them medrash, mishnayos or Maimonides. Plenty of famous lamdanim and roshei yeshiva, even gedolei hador, have had children who were big disappoitments, as is well known. I don’t know any way to do this without a commitment of time, genuine and oft-expressed affection and lots of empathy, regardless of your level of Torah erudition.

    Having said that, I have learned from what I see in the world that you can communicate your values to children (but you can’t force them to adopt them as adults), you can teach them manners (and if you don’t, they almnost certainly won’t learn them anywhere else) and you can release them into the world with or without a sense of confidence and a belief that they are loved… and beyond that, you cannot make their choices for them. They are not extensions of us but actual other people.

  40. M-You are correct re R Russell and Tikvah. IIRC, there is also a branch in Lakewood as well. An ad for a seminar on this issue was recently posted here.

  41. Jaded Topaz-Take a look at R Wolbe’s book on parenting which Feldheim published in English.As R Wolbe stresses so often, parents have to relate to children in accordance with their personalities and emotions. IIRC, R Wolbe emphasizes that while a parent and child should try to learn together, they should do so at a level or duration that is excessive to a child’s need for free time. IMO, there is nothing quite like it as a guide to parents which IMO should be mandatory for all would be parents. In a recently posthumously published volume of letters, R Wolbe pointed out that any kind of physical punishment is bound to be completely counterproductive as a parenting device and will alienate any normal child.

  42. My above point being that they’re closed minded to anyplace they perceive as “black”, since they think their son will find it to be too frum. But I doubt that a HS such as the one Steve referred to above would have such an attitude.

  43. I’m going to try to suppress my natural inclination to “provide advice”, solicated or otherwise, with this family. As I wrote to Rav Horowitz previously, and here’s where the BT factor comes in, they know very little about “the yeshivah velt”, and have an opinion that all yeshivas, as opposed to dayschools, are cookie cutter factories. But some are actually very warm, nurturing places. And there’s been a loss of bitachon, starting with when the mom stopped covering her hair. That’s a simplistic sentence here, but it’s roots are deeper then that.

    I wish they were in NYC…. I’d personally drive them over to meet with Dr. Pelcovitz, he’s amazing! But they’re not.

  44. Jaded Topaz-I think that you missed my point. I agree that no child should be subjected to his or her father’s would be chiddushim on any subject. However, parents and children should be able to bond and emotionally connect over a Chumash, Navi, Mishnah, Gemara, etc. as chavrusas and at the Shabbos table, which in many families, is the real quality in an otherwise busy family life. Noone disputes the notion that parents and children should be emotionally connected with parents always keeping lines open for communication, questions, etc as opposed to being two legged banks. My point is that an emotional connection should have some Torah content to it

  45. JT,

    Certainly you are correct that “knowing how to emotionally connect to your kid is way more important than whether or not you know how to tutor your kids in navi”. But your next statement “Ànd if that’s the way frum fathers connect, *only* by learning stuff, well then that’s not ok” is misleading and unfair. If you substitue any *only* it is not OK, whether it is ‘only by playing ball’ or ‘only by taking trips’, etc…

    So if you remove the word ‘only’, then frum fathers connecting with their kids by learning with them is *very* OK. And it helps reduce runaway worries by showing the child that you value them by spending quality time with them and by helping them succeed in school.

    (And, for the record, in my house the above is accomplished by the children’s mother who learns navi with them, not their father.)

  46. Steve,

    I know about a sem in Israel, run by R’ Russell, (he goes there quite often, and has very dedicated and talented staff there). The one in Israel is called Tikvah. Does he have one in Lakewood as well?

  47. I hate to say it but when it comes to issues of special ed, parents have to realize that local community yeshiva ketanos , day schools and BYs will host but will generally not fund raise for special ed programs. Many educational institutions will gladly shep nachas for a special ed program but will also breathe a sigh of relief when parents involved organize the program, obtain community support and do all the fund raising. It is a sad state of affairs, but AFAIK, this is a fact of life.

    IMO, and IIRC, I previously posted on the details of organizing such a program, one of the benefits of this POV is that a parent run program can organize, raise the awareness of a community, fund raise and hire faculty and administration from the ground up without having to run everything past a host school’s board , etc for approval. In the long run, a parent run program may be fiscally independent and educationally superior to a school run resource room that parents are reluctant to send their kids to because of the stigma involved in doing so. While we may think that the community owes all of its kids a program, IMO, a viable parent-organized and run progam is certainly preferable to the spectacle of a school closing a program for financial constraints or because the partnership between the school and the parents dissipated.

  48. Charnie-There is a seminary or yeshiva being run in Lakewood by a R Shimon Russell, who was one of the co-authors of the Nefesh Kids at risk study about nine (9) years ago along with D Norman Blumenthal,a psychologist. I would suggest that your friends contact either of them or Dr David Pelcowitz.

  49. In this case, OOT was being used to refer to Out of Town, town being NYC. COuld have been OOS – out of state.
    One of the severest issues here, not that I have a clue if, chas v’sholom I was in their shoes, I’d react any differently, is a feeling that the frum community has let them down. Which means in turn, trying to put them in touch with Nefesh – which they know of – is futile. My husband has an old friend from his yeshiva days who is now running a HS for OTD boys in Monsey. Hoping to find more out about that – but we can’t force these parents speak to him. Over the years, I’ve put in recommendations of contacts etc., but none have been followed up upon. Friendship does have its limitations.

  50. Because children (even when they grow to be adults) tend to model and internalize their parents’ behavior, it is important for BT parents to model exemplary behavior towards their own parents.

    Often this is very difficult because the non-frum parents (grandparents) are hostile, angry, insulting and so on.

    But if BT parents work hard on modeling kibud av ve’em even towards hostile and difficult parents — always speaking to their parents in a soft and courteous tone even when they must disagree — then they have an excellent chance of having children who will in turn treat them with respect.

    This makes is much less likely that their children will go OTD and even if the children do go through a rebellious stage the relationship between BT parents and their own children will tend to be strong and warm and the children will tend to come back to Yiddishkeit after their adolescent rebellion.

    Likewise BT parents (and all parents) should try very hard to model soft and courteous speech to EACH OTHER — minimizing disrespect and sarcasm between fathers and mothers.

  52. I think too much emphasis is being allocated/routed towards the wrong acronym.Th̩ acronym everyone should be focusing on is EPIQ Emotional Parenting IQ , not RELIQ РReligious IQ.
    As I’m sure everyone knows , Knowing how to emotionally connect to your kid is way more important than whether or not you know how to tutor your kids in navi. Ànd if that’s the way frum fathers connect, only by learning stuff well then that’s not ok.

    As such it doesn’t really matter whether your frum from birth , far from frum , frolicking in frumkeit,embracing your heritage or frum since Friday. That shouldn’t be the essence of the runaway kid worry.Runny the the runaway is not changing his mind çuz of his fathers fascinating navi discourse. He may decide running is not his namesake after a good fatherly discourse.

    Àlso before an individual gets hitched and hooked for life , there should be some mandatory parenting IQ test that needs to be passed.This should facilitate in birthing and breeding emotionally healthy/ rust resistant and runaway resiliant children. Yeah its that simple ;-)

  53. Paging R Horowitz and any possible members of Nefesh-Charnie-May I suggest that your OOT BT friends contact either R Horowitz or someone that he could recommend within Nefesh-a superb network of frum psychiatrists, psychologists and social workers on their son’s issues? WADR, sending a kid with such issues OOT ( thanks B Miller!) would only add to the problems faced by an OTD diagnosed student.

  58. How very strange that this article should appear 1 day after learning that some very, very dear OOT (BT) friends of ours are again in a bind with an OTD son (who I once wrote to Rav Horowitz about). After being in public school for several years, they put this HS boy into an even further OOT HS (not likely to have been a school that anyone on this blog would have selected), and alas, they’ve had to bring him back home, probably for good. This means they’ll probably put him back into PS. Granted, he has “issues”, but the research about OTD teens from all types of families points to the fact that there are often psychological issues, such as non-acceptance by peers, at play in these kids decisions. I am heartbroken about this situation because they are among my closest friends in the world.

  59. While I’m as guilty as (or more than) the next guy of reading only a few of my seforim often, even the less-read ones have been good resources to answer questions that come up.

    It’s also a good idea to care for the well-used books properly. This is a matter of respect and common sense. Many of today’s Hebrew books still have weak bindings.

  60. I previously had purchased and read Ms. Jaffe’s book and had some more than slight misgivings over its tone. Yet, when read together with “Off The Derech”, I have completely changed my mind. IMO, both books are imperative for BTs. Es Chatai Ani Mazkir Hayom. I ask forgiveness for my comments re the author’s approach. IMO, there is no guide that can be written that can and will suite all BTs attempting to raise families in the manner of “Parenting for BTs.” There are so many different issues that it would take a multi volume work like the SA or the MB to catalogue all of these issues. In addition, hashkafic differences would have to be surmounted without soft pedaling them.

    I agree that it is deceptively , overly easy and possibly even inappropriate for me to even post on this issue from my POV because we were zoche to have married off one daughter to a SIL who is a Mentsch, Baal Midos and Ben Torah. Yet,IMO, there are certain fundamentals that always come to my mind when I think about this issue.

    At the risk of sounding preachy, I think that if you want a son, daughter or a DIL or SIL who values Limud HaTorah or Harbatzas Torah as much as possible, I am reminded of an old saying of one of my wife’s dearest relatives-values are caught, not taught. IOW, parents have a responsibility in setting a tone and atmosphere in which they show their kids that they value Limud HaTorah, as opposed to just preaching its importance for the admittedly important purpose of doing well in school for a grade.

    IMO, we have many means of helping everyone appreciate the beauty and power of Limud HaTorah on their own level . Take a look at the SOY Seforim sale or any quality Judaica/Seforim store. You will see tons of seforim, books, audio visual aids, etc that helps one learn today. If your kids know that you consider the Seforim Sale as an annual pilgramage and that you love to browse in seforim stores in the same manner that some people browse in malls, they will notice what is important in their parents’ lives.

    OTOH, just purchasing sefarim is not a guaranty. I once heard RHS comment that a bookshelf of sefarim that look brand new and haven’t been touched since they were placed there sends a message that they are a nice display that don’t get touched. Sefarim that have bookmarks and covers that show that they are used and referred to send a message that they are in fact an important part of one’s life.(In all jest-one could argue that is a shelf of sefarim doesn’t get used or touched, they might even be considered a rare item ala Muktze Machmas Chisaron Kis and assur on Shabbos!)

    OTOH, I am reminded of a very scary passage in about the third perek of Shekalim where the Amoraim describe how in their times the discussions within TSBP had been reduced to as simple a discussion as possible and they were still having difficulties understanding pshat. So, we see that even in the days of the Amoraim, difficulties in learning were not uncommon and we should not fool ourselves that all of the wonderful tools that are out there are a guide to instant success. Any and all success in learning requires a parent and a child to work together-even if it means that you need a tutor to help a child on materials that are beyond a parent’s knowledge base. OTOH, one can argue that the wealth of English and other non Lashon HaKodesh materials today ( Spanish, French and Russian) bridges the gap substantially.

    Likewise, developing kavanah in Tefilah has also heen a struggle going back to the Talmud. Again, children who see parents who value Tefilah per se and not as a social gathering get the message of the purposes of Tefilah.

    I also believe that the Shabbos and YT tables are critical venues where parents and children have to communicate as to what is happening in their lives, and also via Zmiros , a Dvar Torah and some learning between parents and children.OTOH,I don’t think that reading every Dvar Torah that you download is beneficial. A short “Vort” can serve the purpose very well. Obviously, everything has to be geared in a way that everyone is involved on their level

    The Yated’s letters page has raised the issue of whether a year or two in EY is necessary. IMO, a year at the least is a necessity, regardless of one’s hashkafic orientation. Tanach comes alive and especially for students who are coming from schools where growth in Limudie Kodesh and Avodas HaShem competes with extracurricular activities and the APs, one has the opportunity to learn and grow with no compettition whatsoever.

    The above are what IMO are the necessary building blocks but are ovviously by no means guarantees.I have always responded to the well meaning query of relatives who whether I have any secret in knowing whether our kids will remain Torah observant by stating that I have no guarantees but I think that I have at least a fighting chance if try to exemplify as much as possible what a Ben Torah should he in his private and public spheres. The Brisker Rav ZTL once responded to a query why his sons turned out to be such outstanding Talmidie Chachamim. IIRC, the Brisker Rav ZTL responded that Tehilim and tears were the keys. IMO, if one works on oneself as a Ben or Bas Torah, especially with one’s children and is aware that raising children is seen by Gdolim as requiring both effort and trust in HaShem, one has a fighting chance, at the very least.

  61. B miller asks: Has our generation redefined “the” derech to contain a narrower range of educational and career options than existed for the Orthodox in the past? If so, what mechanism exists to correct the situation?

    You said it. Exactly what I was trying to say, that I hope I’m not brainwashed by frum peers to think that my kid is off the derech when the only thing that happened is that he or she wanted to live a slightly different lifestyle than his or her parents — as long as it’s still frum. We live in a time when frum Jews are judging one another for not only, do you wear a kippah, but is it knit or black velvet? How sad. We have a responsibility as parents to be sure we don’t teach our children that it really matters whether someone grew up with a white tablecloth or a blue one at their shabbos table. The real question is, did you grow up observing Shabbos? And an even better question is: Did you grow up loving Shabbos?

  62. Belle – you say – “even after years of observing happy family life and exemplary grandchildren, parents hostile to observance will likely attribute any success to “coincidence” or “good genes” or “good parenting skills” or whatever, rather than to a Torah way of life. The hostility remains, they have just learned not to voice it at risk of losing the connection to their children and grandchildren that they value.”

    Belle, oy, oy, oy, I fear you are correct for many families, mine included. Which leads me to this thought. When will I stop needing or caring whether or not my secular family approves, recognizes the beauty of Torah, admits that their rejection of this path because of their fears of what would happen turned out to be unfounded? When will I, at the ripe old age of 47, stop wanting mommy and daddy to approve? The truth, for me, is that as I age, and watch my children become incredible human beings with Torah as their guide, I still long for some non existent family approval, but I need it less because I really do know in my heart of hearts that we made the right decision. Still, does a BT ever get over that longing for a parent to sit at the pesach table smiling in pride? This BT hasn’t.

  63. Azriella is quite right. However, even after years of observing happy family life and exemplary grandchildren, parents hostile to observance will likely attribute any success to “coincidence” or “good genes” or “good parenting skills” or whatever, rather than to a Torah way of life. The hostility remains, they have just learned not to voice it at risk of losing the connection to their children and grandchildren that they value.

  64. I’m tempted to respond to every response to my article posted this AM, about the potential risk of bt kids off the derech. I know there will be many more intelligent and thought provoking responses. And of course my article could only scratch the surface of this very complex topic.

    I felt compelled to respond right away to Ron Coleman’s statement: “Except for a few virulently anti-reliigous people, of which there are really very few in our generation, non-religious Jews in the United States are mostly that: Non-religious, not anti-religious.”

    Ron, I wish that were an accurate statement and I hope and pray that you are right, and I am misguided on this one. In my experience, some of the most emotional anti-religious attitudes I’ve seen has come from the non religious Jews who are so vested in their decision to be non religious, and so threatened by anyone taking a different path ( especially a family member), they are anything but detached about it. If it were truly a “whatever makes you happy” kind of attitude, it would be a lot easier for some of us. Many of us are far more respected by observant Christians than secular Jews. Some non observant Jews are somewhere between ambivalent and cautiously okay with it and even proud of their more observant relatives. The atittude “Grandma would be so proud of you” does come through in some families. Unfortunately, this is not universal. There’s no question that some of the greatest hostility I’ve experienced as a public speaker on this topic is when someone in the audience is secular, and yes, unfortunately, staunchly anti-observant. They may not realize the complicated psychological reasons for their anti-observance, but it’s there in spades. Often I feel it comes from fear, because they are so vested in the idea that assimilation and not being openly observant is safer, and less likely to result in being attacked for being Jewish. Some of their strong feelings against religious observance also comes from their own guilt or abivalence about abandoning observance alltogether, although many of them are not aware of this. Some of it stems from this deep seated resentment: “So, you think you are better than me just because you don’t eat lobster?” When I am the recipient of hostility from someone like this, all I can do is feel compassion for them, and not get sucked into a debate with them. Still, I do feel great sadness when I experience a forceful anti-religious remark from a fellow Jew. We BT’s have a powerful opportunity to shift that sentiment in our own families, at least, when over the course of time, formerly resistant or angry family members come to see that religious observance has turned out happy, healthy, and decent children and grandchildren. It often takes years, but the shift does often happen.

  65. Has our generation redefined “the” derech to contain a narrower range of educational and career options than existed for the Orthodox in the past? If so, what mechanism exists to correct the situation?

  66. David S,

    You have said some important things. However, I question your point about children of olim BTs going OTD vs those living in Chutz La’Aretz, at least from a statistical point of view. I don’t doubt your experience or the important differential aspects you mentioned, I just want to point out that your understanding of the statistics of children of olim BTs going OTD seems to parallel the statistics of the children of FFB olim going off the derech.

    Now, I don’t have any clue about the diferences between children of BTs in CL as opposed to EY but I thought it was worth pointing out the parallels with FFB parents.

  67. Dear All:

    I read Azriela’s book and I highly recommend it. It is excellent.

    Having worked with teens at risk for many years, I think the greatest risk factor for children of ba’alei teshuvah “going off the derech” is veering TO THE RIGHT of the golden path of moderation charted by the wisest of all men, King Solomon.

    Please see my two posts on this subject

    https://beyondbt.com/?p=604

    https://beyondbt.com/?p=610

    especially the parts about chumros, yeshivos for kids, communities, families, — OK read them all carefully. :)

    At the risk of sounding self-serving, I appeal to every young ba’al teshuva couple to print these two columns, turn off your cell phones and read them very, very carefully. You may be saving yourselves a great deal of aggrivation years down the road.

    With admiration and respect

    Rabbi Yakov Horowitz
    Menahel, Yeshiva Darchei Noam
    Director, Project Y.E.S.

    PS You may also wish to visit my website http://www.rabbihorowitz.com and sign up for my weekly Q&A columns on parenting. (You may find, for example, the 2 columns on Shabbos tables, to be of assistance. There is a search engine on the site) I try to be very practical in the advice that I give. I hope that you will find them of help in keeping your children well-adjusted — and on the path to success.

  68. Azriela, very nice article.

    However, you don’t address the issue of whether children born in BT homes are more prone to go off the derech.

    I don’t have any statistics, but it seems to me from my Jerusalem based observation that nearly every mature BT family I know has a least one child who has dropped out of the Yeshivah system, to put it mildly. Sometimes they turn to the street and drugs, sometimes to the army, and sometimes they’re in special ‘yeshivos’ where they hang around and work most of the day. (I don’t know what the girls do, it’s not as visible—but from what I’ve heard the problem is more nightmarish).

    Here is where we’re at a disadvantage, because frum families have an entire support system of relatives, friends, and former classmates to hold the child within the frum world, and we generally lack this.

    There is no doubt to my mind that our children are more at risk; although I can really only speak specifically about Yeshivishe chareidi society in Israel, my realm of experience. We are immigrants (Americans—think of your attitude to Russian or Iranian immigrants), with all the attendant issues of language barrier and cultural differences; most often financially strained or worse; we lack the protexia that makes things work in this country, and our social status as chutznikim (immigrant) baalei teshuvah is the lowest on the totem pole (beneath Sephardi Israeli baalei teshuvah, ve’hameivin yavin).

    Truthfully, if I’d known what we’d be up against, I would have certainly settled in the U.S. or Canada, where the frum society is more open and we would be more accepted, and were we’d be better equipped to earn a living wage. Suffice it to say that by the time we ‘woke up’ it was too late (see the 250 comments about financial realities in the U. S., tuition, etc.).

    Back in our day, those in baalei yeshivos and seminaries were exposed to heavy peer pressure (and most likely the majority of Rabbinical advice as well) to stay in Israel at all costs, because in Chul you’d likely never remain frum. This was misdirected advice, in most cases, and there has been a strong reversal on this issue, I believe.

    Some of these issues are equally problematic is the States. I have heard that the most important antidote is to be extremely pro-active in your children’s chinuch, and not to leave things up to the fabulously frum and/or fabulously expensive Torah education you’re providing for them, or to the comfortable frum community you may be in.

    This entails making a solid loving connection with your children when they are preschoolers, before they are three, and maintaining the relationship with the investment of your time over the years.

    And, as Azriela so eloquently put it—lots and lots of tefillah!

    Most importantly, we need to daven before something happens, as women do at candle lighting. If a woman prays with tears every Friday night for her chidrens’ yiras shamayim, it makes a huge impression in Heaven—and her children are aware of it and know what she’s praying for!

  69. You touched on a real issue. There is a big difference between a secular parent seeing their kid choose religion vs. a religious parent seeing there kid go off the derech.
    The secular parent is upset because they might feel they will be rejected, etc..They might feel real pain. However a religious parent who has a child who goes off the derech (lo aleinu-it shouldnt happen) sees their child “commiting spiritual suicide”( I know I am going to get slammed for this one). They see another Yid abandoning Hashem. They worry about what will be with their child in the next world. They also experience on top of that the emotions of maybe I failed, etc.

  70. I’m sure you are aware that the phenomenon of children of BT parents being at risk or even off the derech is not insignificant. Some contributing factors: being “immigrants” to the frum world, they are unfamiiar with social and sociological factors that make them savvy to issues their children may have; no extended family to help; unfamiliarity with learning; being overly strict; bringing unresolved baggage into their marriage; tensions w. family causing shalom bayis problems; trying to raise a large family without having been raised in one; and finally, not integrating properly into a frum community or speaking badly about the frum world.

    It is truly heartbreaking. But some children are just plain rebellious and do come back/settle down after the teenage years.

  71. I don’t accept the proposed symmetry. My parents were not “brokenhearted” when I became religious. They were confused, angry, yes, disappointed about small things — as alluded to in the title of your book — such as my ability to interact with them as freely as I could in the past. But I was not rejecting their values; I was acting on them, and they knew this. Any complaints or accusation were a matter of degree: “Do you have to be so extreme?” Not, “Why have you rejected the principles I taught you about being careful to eat bacon” or “But we always to malacha on Shabbos!” Except for a few virulently anti-reliigous people, of which there are really very few in our generation, non-religious Jews in the United States are mostly that: Non-religious, not anti-religious. But if they’re like mine, your parents sent you to Hebrew school, wanted you to be Jewishly oriented and, to some extent, you have taken them up on their aspirations, albeit in a way they did not conceive. But it is just not the same thing as children affirmatively rejected their parents’ religious values.

    I also question whether the children of FFB’s are at risk in the same way and at the same percentage of children of BT’s. There are entirely different sets of issues, as well as some that are the same. Among the distinctions are the fact that BT parents will be perceived by their offspring as having made a conscious choice and that their parents can speak to their children knowledgeably of the world they left behind. On the other side, BT’s have less social, family, and frequently economic support than FFB’s in the pursuit of a frum way of life, and these strains can in some cases play out negatively in family life. Also most BT’s are not as knowledgeable, especially comparing fathers with a basic bais medrash education to a typical BT father, and it cannot be doubted that a better grounding in Torah can only be positive.

    Thus there are issues that cut both ways, but they are different from those of the children of FFB’s.

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