Seems like I’m frequently sending in the “warning” story. While it’s not, G-d forbid, my intention to be negative on interactions between BT’s and the frum community, it seems I run across my share of people who have, well lets just say, misunderstood peoples intentions or perspectives, to their personal detriment. This story is one of those, from first hand knowledge, and happened in the last year. Names have been changed, loshon hara is not the objective…
— Leah’s Story —
Leah was a young woman in her early twenties when she first encountered a Jewish outreach organization. She spent some months with them and her soul was ignited. She burned to learn more. The organization encouraged her to attend their women’s yeshiva in New York, and she worked hard to arrange to be able to do so. With great joy she learned for about a year and half, and took an apartment with some of the other young women students in Boro Park (NY City very-frum community). As she learned, she looked around her neighborhood and idolized her neighbors. The women with 4 or 5 or 7 young children moving organized down the street in and out of the stores, walking regally with their husbands and children on Shabbat, this was her goal, and a worthy goal it was.
And her neighbors were warm, helpful, inviting. The children, as children almost always are, were engaging, and a large table covered with a white tablecloth, Shabbos finery and the warm smells of Shabbos food, oh, she ached for such beauty in the norm in her life.
One day, after she’d been there a year, a neighbor invited her in for a cup of tea. The neighbor asked, “what would you think of a shidduch offer (a marriage proposal)?” Well, she was thrilled! She could be the one regally walking on Shabbat, and preparing the fine Shabbos table, it was all within reach! The neighbor continued, “there’s a young man in Williamsburg, he’s a Michlov chossid (fictional chassidus name replacing the real one), who would make a nice match.”
Now we pause a moment for some explanation. There are some frum groups that are heavily involved in outreach, and their communities are full of BTs. There are some that are lightly involved, and their communities have some BTs. And there are those who are not involved at all and are, frankly, pretty darn insular. Among those, well I guess the word sects is appropriate, that are involved in outreach, some in those communities greatly appreciate the BT fervor and zest for Torah and Hashem, but there are those who don’t… because it’s different, because it shows a family problem, because it creates lots of relationship complications. Those that don’t would have concerns about their children marrying a BT (straight up, they would discourage it).
Most living in Williamsburg, a wonderful place full of Torah, are in the insular category. Let’s just say when it comes to having their children marry a BT, it wouldn’t normally be considered. And with that, back to our story…
So Leah consulted her Rosh Yeshiva. He expressed strong concerns and advised her against considering it. She spoke with her rav, same answer. But, this was her dream and she was chasing it…so she went on a date. He was a nice looking young man, had an income, and his family was extremely, extremely, welcoming. Another 2 dates and the match was agreed. But why? Why would a nice looking young man from an insular chassid group with a good family and parnosa be looking so far outside his community for a match? I mean, Leah is a nice young woman of average looks, no special job skills, and from an average family (no special wealth)?
The Rebbe of the chassidus gave a bracha, but also strangely went on about how he was there should she every have a problem, she shouldn’t hesitate to come right over and discuss it.
The wedding was nice, the kallah was beautiful, the music was good. The Get, the divorce, came 6 weeks later. See, he had dropped out of the community (so he no longer was considered an acceptable match for anyone in it) and, supposedly, returned. But in reality, Leah was headed up, he was headed down, she was burning for Torah and Hashem, he was burning with other, less savory, desires. To the shadchun, the matchmaker, it looked like they were in a similar place. But their ships were headed in opposite directions, and when they arrived in the same house, this became apparent very quickly.
— Zahava’s Story —
Zahava’s story starts similar. Her father passed away when she was young, and her mother was part of a marginal community but moderately religious. Full religious education was not available in her area, but in college she became interested and starting looking to learn more. She actually ended up in the same women’s yeshiva as Leah, at the same time. For Zahava, the whole family picture was the draw. Ah, look at the couples lovingly walking together and making their life together. She didn’t grow up with that, and she desired it.
The story from here is similar. A neighbor, a shadchan (matchmaker), a chossid of Memlachta from a Williamsburg family (though living in Flatbush, a bit odd right there). This one takes some interesting twists though… The chasan’s family (groom’s family) wanted to make sure it was properly kosher for their son. So, first, prove you’re Jewish. Well, the mother doesn’t have actual paperwork (do you?). So they push her to go through a geiurus safek (a conversion of doubt). Then, what kind of properly chassidic name is Zahava? So they make her take on an additional name, now she’s Fraida Zahava. They took her to the store and set her up with the right wardrobe (according to their Williamsburg chassidic standards), right down to the type of underwear.
The wedding just occurred, all proper. But again, the question of why an insular chassidic family is taking a BT for their son stands out. A few tidbits have leaked out, and indeed, there’s a reason he was living in Flatbush and not in his chassidic community. Perhaps, G-d willing, it will work out, yet it would seem that again, they are headed in opposite directions.
—
My dear friends, there are many who greatly appreciate the zeal and drive BTs bring. Yet others don’t appreciate the background BTs bring. Whether this is fair or not is not the point. If those that are known for not appreciating that zeal are suddenly involving themselves with you (as a “BT”), just keep your eyes open and try to recognize why.
My understanding of the FFB/BT “Michlov” husband was that he wanted to be BT, but wasn’t really. He tried to return to his community, but still had desires for a non-frum lifestyle. So it’s not a story saying “don’t marry FFBs who were once off the derech,” but “be careful about marrying certain kinds of FFBs.”
Unfortunately, I know of two women here in Israel with similar stories. It wasn’t an issue of their surroundings, as they were from two very different backgrounds and hashkafot. The issue, IMO, was just being a bit too desperate to get married, and a bit too naive about human nature, about how easy it is to make a marriage work, and about what it takes to make a marriage work. In both cases, if the young women in question had brought their families and rabbis/mentors into the process, things could have ended differently, but they rushed full steam ahead while ignoring any advice that they didn’t want to hear.
I’m not sure what can be done to avoid situations like these. I advise all of my BT friends to date for at least a certain amount of time, say 4-6 months (or more depending on circumstances). I know that in some communities that’s considered a long time, but IMO BTs have more issues to work out than two FFBs who come from virtually identical backgrounds (even the FFBs should date for at least a few weeks, IMO). After all, the goal isn’t to get married, it’s to stay married.
Bob Miller and Jacob Haller
You are so right and I apologize for any negative non positive and or condescending connotations. Also
I’d like to take this unique opportunity to invite you to the first annual boro park biblical bake a thon.
Featuring let them eat cake lectures and how to bake your cake for the sake of gd and eat it too how tos.
Mesmerizing sponge cake testimonies on how I absorbed all of religion in one simple baking.
Marble cake musings on how I lost my marbles and found them in a boro park community
And so much more !
Discover a whole new dimension to the baking experience.
Men ladies children and babies welcome.
JT,
The point regarding Boro Park is that your making harsh and negative generalizations about the place, you claim it was the cause of Leah’s malaise and you’re implying that she brought some or all of it onto herself by choosing BP as her place of residence.
You’re right, it’s not clear that her Rosh Yeshiva and Rav are from Boro Park but it’s also not clear why she selected it. However, that lack of clarity did not prevent you from jumping to an ostensibly condescending conclusion that her sole motivation was “yearning for challah baking bake offs and baby walking”
That type of condescension is not in sync with the lofty goals you announced of “working hard to understand others, harness some sense of humility/lose the superiority complex/knock less and respect moreâ€
AFAIC, it’s just as likely that she selected Boro Park not because of the types of people that set her up for that tragedy but despite: Case in point, her Rabbeim who offered sound advice to run from the ill-advised shidduch.
Pirkei Avos refers to this as “L’chol Adam Dan L’kaf Zchus”
Ora, its not clear whether or not her rosh Yeshiva and rav are from Boro Park.And even if they are Boro park people,the question for understanding still remains.why on earth did she choose boro park.
If I move to Amsterdam , the community I join and the friends and concepts I fall in love with would probally me more influential than any rosh yeshivs or rav who gives me some shows of concerns and a directive or two.Even if my rosh yeshiva lives in Amsterdam too.Why I moved to Amsterdam might be a good question to consider when I fall in love with the way of living there which may or may not be good for me and or start marrying the wrong men there.same with leah I think. Maybe. Maybe not. Whatever.
“Also what sound advice from rebbes are you referring to ? His blessing à nd offers of concern should anything go wrong. Sound indeed !”
That was the rabbi of the “Michlov” chassidim. Leah’s rabbi from Borough Park discouraged the shidduch.
Jacob Haller,
Are we on the same thread here ?
You started off by questioning me on the connection or calling for a reconciliation between a question I had asked sandwiched in between two opinions and a lofty sentiment or two that I had blackberried in a moment of spiritual delirium.
My answer is I reserve the right to question anything for the sake of understanding.I can also question with an occasional opinion tacked on. Hope that’s ok with you.
As for my other points in this thread,I’m reading a lot of unanswered questions and a few opinions that you are not obligated to agree on.
Also what sound advice from rebbes are you referring to ? His blessing à nd offers of concern should anything go wrong. Sound indeed !
Its sound advice like these heartfelt blessings instead of full disclosurings, that make me want to start investing so much more of my faith in the spiritual cotton candy like blessings stocks
I just had this conversation/argument with an individual on the advice he received from the neighborhood rabbi.His advice for complex concerns à nd serious marital issues is fluffier than the first batch of cotton candy at a carnival.
JT responded:
“I’m just trying to understand emphasis on the understand ! why on earth of all fun communities she chose boro park. The answer might give me or you a deeper ünderstanding à nd appreciation for all things boro park!”
Perhaps you are, but in previous postings it sounded like you had it all figured out already and IMHO it didn’t jibe with the lofty goals of seeking greater understanding prior to making judgements, and of course knocking less.
For one thing, the Rabbeim she consulted which likely were from Boro Park as well, gave what appears to be sound advice. I can envision people who on one hand would criticize them for not taking an even “stronger” stand but if they did, say in the form of physical intervention, take a stronger stand they would be criticized for being patronizing towards women.
“Am I allowed to question in my quest for deeper understandings of how things go wrong on a public post. Or am I supposed to understand that questions are not part of the unadulterated understanding equation”
Are you turning this into some kind of martyrdom issue? This give-and-take started with my own questions. And one was how you can resolve the idea of seeking greater understanding prior to judgements when it seemed like the conclusions were already drawn in the same post.
JT, you can also be tolerant of Jews who live in Boro Park and recognize that someone who wants to pick up and join them isn’t somehow a nut. And if some ladies like babies and baking that’s OK, too.
Jacob,Haller,
If you read the lines , all the lines of the initial post that is, you might appreciate what you seem to classify as contradictions a little more.
The post is a rant on how the spiritual bliss girl was screwed by the hareidi heart throb with less than savory desires.
I’m thinking that perhaps a large player in this unfortunate connection is the fun fact that she relocated to boro park and fell in love with all it had to offer up to and including the hareidi heart breaker.
Its always good to focus on the source of dysfunctional happenstance and the subsequent misconstrued religious stances individuals sometimes fall hard off of. Stuff Like how she fell in love with boro park to begin with and why. Not that there is anything wrong with that !
Everyone is free to learn whatever lessons they want from this story à nd question whatever they deem questionable. You can feel free to ignore my questions. Or you can Feel free to focus on other fun facts not questions like the less than savory desires that are not named or the fact that only spiritual bliss girl gets any understanding about her background. Religious individuals get screwed by other religious individuals all the time. They sometimes run the other way à nd never look back. But small difference the whole tinok shenishbah thing does not apply and wings its way straight out the window cuz they are supposed to know better being born religious à nd all. So there is no peanut gallery calling for a better understanding or whatever. Anyway please do not take any of my opinions as support for hareidism in any way.
I’m just trying to understand emphasis on the understand ! why on earth of all fun communities she chose boro park. The answer might give me or you a deeper ünderstanding à nd appreciation for all things boro park !
Am I allowed to question in my quest for deeper understandings of how things go wrong on a public post. Or am I supposed to understand that questions are not part of the unadulterated understanding equation.
Happy understanding for proper and nuanced stance taking Wednesday !
JT,
Could you please reconcile two of your statements that appear contradictory
“Its not clear how Leah became religious, but calling Boro Park home is distinctly disconcerting actually. Why on earth is Leah in Boro Park yearning for challah baking bake offs and baby walking ? Bad choices are bound to follow”
and
“But I am a (fickle) believer in working hard to understand others, harness some sense of humility/lose the superiority complex/knock less and respect more”
Ron- I always did want to be “right” on a beyondbt thread ever since I was an obnoxious about religion kid.
M – So my point was brought up wise and was well taken, that must mean i’m movin up in spiritual thread life.
Also, Obviously yenta matchmakers should be avoided like the new superbug.They should be forced to do community service for every divorce they have a hand or investment in.
If you think about it, the whole concept of a matchmaker is beyond absolutely absurd and should be done away with.
Why anyone would consult with one is beyond my level of logical comprehension.
There is actually another large problem in this complex post.
Its whats happens when there is a distinct dearth of intellectualism among religious women.
Have you checked out the recent lecture offerings in the New York New Jersey area that allow women to attend ? Not much of a selection actually.
Its not clear how Leah became religious, but calling Boro Park home is distinctly disconcerting actually.
Why on earth is Leah in Boro Park yearning for challah baking bake offs and baby walking ?
Bad choices are bound to follow.And thats probally how hazardous hareidi guy managed to slip into the picture without even a second guessing.
When I first read the piece, I was just distracted by the blatant “non-equal opportunity understanding” when the piece was describing why the marriage went rusty, and felt the need to point out the discrepencies even if it meant sticking up for a hazardous to your health born again hareidi heartbreaker.
I’m obviously not a fan of hareidiism in any way or flavor, born again or otherwise.
And they should marry among themselves for happy marriages.
But I am a (fickle) believer in working hard to understand others, harness some sense of humility/lose the superiority complex/knock less and respect more, though there is so little to respect these days.
I’ve had way more than my fair share of outrageous screwy interactions with less than stellar examples of religious people over the years and recently. I swear off religion often.
I wish I could use my experiences as excuses but I just have my poor choices to fall back on.
But maybe if there was more of an emphasis on religious intellectual lectures and classes (gemara for starters) that allow women to join and argue, judaism would be a happier place and women would stay religious longer
.
Or I was thinking we could start a hillel on the roof association for holy women who want to learn in the bais medrash but cant.We would have to pick synagogues that have clear sun roofs though.It could be kind of fun and an interesting way to learn.
There are just way too many of those everywhere rabbis , clearly, honor seeking junkies, fanning their fan club with public displays of caring confetti, fanfare and pseudo spiritual fare / cotton candy/parsha stories and a sugar headache.
Life cant get any fluffier and funner !
She’s right, Jaded is, about this: What could that lady have been thinking? We’ve mocked the purported “CTBATD”* scenario elsewhere, but isn’t that exactly what the unfortunate lady in the story did here?
—
*”Checked Their Brains at the Door”
Reading the label is only one part of an investigation.
Jaded,
You have a point about a broader appreciation for BT’s of all kinds and stripes. I didn’t think of that, and it is wise that you brought it up.
I think the post’s primary focus was on the potential “falling in” as related to gross mismatches, resulting from a lack of understanding on the Shadchan’s part, and/or a lack of research on the part of the BT. Not necessarily because the proposed dating partner was an FFB turned BT- mismatches may arise from a myriad of situations. However, your point is well-taken, and made me re-read the post with a new perspective.
Excellent and very important that this was brought up.
Thanks !
Akiva, how would you reconcile the following 3 seemingly contradictory concepts i’ve chanced upon in your slantedly piercing piece on aidel spiritual bliss meets hareidi heartthrob gone bad.
A) nominating the “unsavory desires” of an ex religious hareidi individual that “came back to his community” as the sole reason for spiritual and emotional heartbreak.
B) definition c over @ merriam webster for appreciate : c: to judge with heightened perception or understanding : be fully aware of
C) your last ironic piece about “appreciating” bt’s and their backgrounds
So your sense of “appreciating bt’s” seems to be about as insular as those insular communities your complaining about.
Your post is vividly vague and unclear and way too slanty.
I’ve had my share of wacko ex hareidi weirdos and stuff even in broad daylight !
Some are clearly lacking in certain areas,that doesnt mean i’m goin to dedicate a whole heartwarming post to warning the world about the hazards of dating ex hareidi people who decide to come back.
They are probally just as hazardous to ones haughty /spiritual health as any individual moving around in different spriitual circles until they find the right one. (no i didnt grow up in the hasidic part of williamsbug and return for some yenta warmth).
Heres the thing, individuals have a innate tendency to blame others for their poor choices/rigid reasonings/lack of common sense and deducing abilities/ limited understanding of relationships and communications and or tripping on the unstable motions of emotional and default moves towards hyperstructured religion.
We are all responsible for the choices we choose to surround ourselves with.
I’ve been fed that line since forever and could probally puke that line up in my sleep…….
scenario in point :
Say I went to India and fell in love with the way of life and gemstone availability. I then start following some religion guru and fantasizing/drooling over the concept of marrying an indian designer and designing jewelry for him.The guru who i’ve come to idolize (hypothetically) sets me up with one of the local hearthrob jewelry designers. After 3 coffee dates im married. after six meals and two jewelry shows we are divorced ,our souls were just not jiving, neither was the jewelry designing.
Other than my lack of intellectual think through and spiritual analysis/ poor choices,emotional need for out of the ordinary connection, theres not much else that I could be blaming my love affair with all that India has to offer on.Who moved herself to India in the first place ?
Back to the Leah story , who was moved by orthodox judaism, who moved herself to boro park ?
Leah should be careful about where she falls in love and why just like everyone else !!!!!!!
Bt’s do not the have exclusive for getting screwed in hareidi society.Its not a trademarked concept.
“unsavory desires” is not an ex hareidi specific trait.but i agree thought the 24/7 religious costume party is an old problem that has been addressed redressed rebuffed over and over again but its still worn and often causes confusion.
Its not clear in this story though that it was the dress that fooled her.
What exactly did she not see in her 3 dates ?
Why did she marry a stranger from an insular community after 3 dates.
Sorry no tinok shenishba brownie points awarded to rebbitzin leah and her six babies in matching buggies and challah baking fantasies.
Especially cuz she only dated her hareidi heartthrob three times. what on earth ????????
Did she even get a chance to share her six babies in matching buggies marching down boro park ave fantasy with him before he married her?
The most ironic part of your whole post is your heartfelt conclusion.
You seem to have forgotten that the hazardous hareidi ex husband in the story was technically a BT according to your post , he had been not religious and then returned to his community (who didnt accept him for their own precious well insulated souls.
So what was that bit about appreciating the background of bt’s ? how does that work, some kind of exclusive appreciating thing where you only appreciate the backgrounds of bt’s that are similar to yours?
So we can learn the following from this piercing piece of one sided marital discord and heartbreak
1) Do not judge your friend and her ex hareidi husband until you have stood in their space.and dont provide readers with the not so unique opportunity to draw blanket conclusions with ambiguous facts that lack content and nuance and tasty tidbits that are not all encompassing in nature.
2) when typing up chicken soup for the spiritually haughty soul stories, its always smart to include both sides of the story.like for instance in this case i would have included examples of “unsavory desires” you know they do differ in definition from community to community ………. did he like watching Grays Anatomy/pushing daisies/ desperate housewives or seinfeld reruns instead of 613 torah ave/uncle moishy and boruch learns his brochos ? Or was the unsavory desires something a little more kinky.
‘ “There’s also the shadchan who thinks an enthusiast BT is just what the person who’s heading in the wrong direction “needs†to “save†him or her…†‘
“Oy. If there was ever an award for the worst reason to get married, it would definitely go to marrying someone in order to save them from themselves. ”
And a shadchan who sets up someone into this situation is not doing anyone a favor. A shadchan who doesn’t know is unqualified for the job, and should rethink career choices.
I have heard far worse stories of shadchanim setting up people who have no business marrying anyone. (People who abuse their (now former) spouses should be blackballed.) One of the points is that BTs need to be very careful. Shadchanim are usually great people, but as they are paid for a marriage, they are not entirely objective. Some want a match – any match – to pay off!
I wonder if Leah’s Rosh Yeshiva feels he did speak strongly, but she did not get the message
It is necessary to speak very plainly (bluntly) to BT’s.
BT’s: learn the signs when people talk, of how they transmit negative information about people.
Everyone: It is not loshon hara if unsavory information is said in order to protect a person from being matched with an abusive person.
This is a very good post. It is not just a warning to BT’s to be careful but everyone should be careful. Unfortunately from between the lines I seem to read that the shadchanim involved are either very naive and not fit for the job or worse being deceptive and definately not suitable to be a shadchan. Shadchanim are OK but buyers beware.
many BT are so plotzing to get married that they do not listen to the advise they got from their rabbonim from seminary, and they ended up in horrific marriages and messy divorces.
I’m sorry to say, but sometimes the Rabbonim are the ones giving out the less than great advice.
Ultimately one needs to trust their instincts and I believe it is best to go through stages in a relationship rather than racing to the chuppah. BT’s do have parents who care. But so many write their parents out of the process, not even introducing a prospective spouse to their parents.
I recommed the book “In the Beginning” by Zimmerman and Einhorn. It talks about the dating process and the importance of developing an emotional bond. I would call the process advocated “Modified Shidduch Dating.” A great read.
The BT who enters the new world of Orthodox Judaism has the responsibility to continue using his/her powers of observation and judgment. A proposed course of action (not only in shidduchim)can look too good to be true because it is.
Yes, people should should take care not to mislead a BT, even for altruistic reasons, but also the BT should take care not to be gullible.
Unfortunately, stories such as the subject of this post are more proof for the proposition that BTs especially should think beyond the proverbial envelope and prize Midos far more than Yichus, if I can paraphrase the view of R M Sternbuch in Teshuvos vHanhaghos. One has to wonder wny BTs were set up with such losers.
YM:
I think the point of the posting was just as was written: a warning to new, perhaps naive BTs, to be careful in the marriage parsha. Many many BTs idealize all frum people in their initial stages, and, unfortunately, may not be wary and savvy enough to properly evaluate a proposal. It seems the shadchan in the above story took advantage of her naivitee and didn’t portray the boy accurately.
It is also a warning to listen to the advice of rabbaim who have your best interests in mind, despite one’s desparation to get married.
I think this is a very valuable post for this website especially. There are many newcomers who read this site, and the point needs to be made, and I think Akiva made it beautifully, without exaggeration or unnecessary loshen hara.
I remember way back when I was dating that sometimes I would be set up with some real winners but I was smart enough to realize on my own that something was fishy. Unfortunately, many BT are so plotzing to get married that they do not listen to the advise they got from their rabbonim from seminary, and they ended up in horrific marriages and messy divorces. Perhaps the rate of divorce among BT is high because they don’t have their parents looking out for them and stearing them away from marriages that are not healthy for them. All BT must use saichel and listen to the wise advice of friends and rabbonim.
Being that I’m not author, I can only offer my opinion:
I think it’s not a blame game, as these shadchanim sound well-intentioned, despite their lack of understanding of the issues.
And this certainly has no relation to Boro Park, as this type of story could have occurred in any of the myriad of flourishing Jewish communities of the type depicted by Akiva (although I disagree with his mention of the location, being that it does tend to lead to the assumption you proposed- this should certainly have been deleted).
The stories demonstrate, IMO, the need for BT’s to develop a strong relationship with a “dating mentor”, in order to help them navigate this complex process. It is also a call to FFB’s to open their eyes to possibilities such as depicted, and help the BT’s they are close in regard to these matters. The end goal is not a happy wedding and spirited dancing, it is a bayit ne’eman b’yisrael with a couple who are content and compatible.
I don’t understand what the goal is of this posting. Or what the point is. Is it that you can’t trust shadchanim from Boro Park? Or that marriage becomes such a big goal that there is a temptation to skip the process of objectively analyzing the match? Or that these women were chasing after images of something that they desired?
Horrific stories.
All of us need to keep our eyes (and hearts) wide open, and do what we can to prevent these tragedies.
“There’s also the shadchan who thinks an enthusiast BT is just what the person who’s heading in the wrong direction “needs†to “save†him or her…”
Oy. If there was ever an award for the worst reason to get married, it would definitely go to marrying someone in order to save them from themselves.
But there are exceptions. I recently met a woman from a very traditional community who is married to a BT with a complicated background. Before I met the wife, I wondered,”What kind of woman will she be, the person who married someone like that?”
The answer was: an open-minded, sincere person who cares about what really matters, not what others think.
And I know several such exceptions.
This is a very common problem! There’s a lack of appreciation for the fact that two people can be at the same place momentarily even though they are heading in the opposite directions. There’s also the shadchan who thinks an enthusiast BT is just what the person who’s heading in the wrong direction “needs” to “save” him or her — a task they would certainly never assign to his or her own offspring!