When trying to show the beauty of Torah, we are faced with a dilemma: should we reveal or hide the imperfections of the Torah Observant community?
From our feedback here at Beyond BT, we know that many people feel we should hide the imperfections. They tell us quite clearly that they would never send a potential or new BT to this site. Their valid point is that people will focus on the imperfections of its adherents and not see the truth and beauty of Torah.
On the other hand the Torah and the Gemorra make it quite clear that the Jewish People have many blemishes that need to be corrected. Hiding this fact is not truthful and often leads to disillusionment down the road when the truth is discovered.
What do you think: Should we hide our imperfections or expose them to the non observant?
I agree with Bob and Ron–we couldn’t hide our imperfections even if we wanted to.
OTOH as Gershon said there’s no need to get into it for no reason. If someone asks me a simple question about a topic that’s somewhat controversial in the frum world I will say “well I hold X but a lot of people think Y” or something like that, but in general if there’s a simple answer available it tends to be best.
We shouldn’t be afraid to say “I don’t know” or to admit that a certain behavior/trend in the frum world is really unacceptable. It’s a lot more frustrating (no matter how observant you are) to hear someone trying to justify bad behavior than to accept that those who try to live by Torah values sometimes fall short.
I think that most people who aren’t observant are drawn to Torah for a lot of reasons, and not through a simple cost/benefit analysis based on the number and type of problems in each community. I know that hearing about problems in the frum world would have disappointed me before I was mostly observant, just as it would now, but I don’t think it would have made the difference in deciding to accept Torah observance or not. I think for most people who are open and honestly hoping to learn, hearing about problems in the frum world is natural and won’t be a huge issue. Who would expect perfection, anyway?
The purpose of this site, as I’ve come to understand it, is to allow discussion of issues that pertain to the already committed (is that a phrase waiting for a punchline?). But short of making this a “members only” blog, where one has to provide a BT resume before they’re admitted, people of all ilks are likely to come here. That said, if someone’s looking for negativity – like my aforementioned friend Susan (see category “intermarriage”), then they’ll find it. But, OTOH, if someone’s looking for support through life’s many issues, they’ll find that too. Some things, not even the admins can control.
Tal, fair enough, but in blog comments as in most of life motivations are often so mixed that a person cannot honestly know why he does or says something himself. It is (sometimes) even harder for us to deduce what those motivations might be.
I will say that people who drop in here, drop a negative-spin bomb and refuse to stick around raise a serious motivation question in my mind. (That isn’t limited to commenters.) But those who keep coming and engaging, I believe, are entitled to be given the benefit of the doubt — subject to the sort of editorial moderation that the BBT Twins do, in fact, maintain ingeniously.
Frankly the burden of such a policy really does fall on them. But they are so well compensated for it that they can hardly complain.
I am all for being honest about our flaws. We need more of that. On the other hand, know who you are talking to. Some people are more nuanced than others and they will appreciate the two sides of the story. Others want simple uncomplicated answers.
For instance: A potential BT asks what washing netillas yadayim is. All he may be asking is “what’s this?” Giving him a lengthy explanation of the logic behind the rabbinical enactments might be over the top for him. And also getting into how some people who are OCD go overboard with this mitzvah is too much information that has little to do with the question. Even someone who is highly intelligent needs to have information presented clearly and simply. We are taught to teach our students in a brief manner for a reason.
But to conceal the truth, that is wrong! It will come back to haunt you and the BT you were mekareiv one day! Do you want him to then say that he became committed to something that doesn’t exist? Let’s not forget that Emes is Hashem’s seal! Do you think that using sheker to bring people to Hashem makes Him happy? I know that lying is permitted for shalom bayis, but is there a chazal that says it’s OK for kiruv?
We have seen in certain debates with priests and apostates, that the Maharal and others gave answers just to fend of the question. But let’s not forget there were lives at stake there. But dishonesty for the sake of kiruv? Show me a source!
But let’s not forget what I started with – you don’t need to preempt every single issue that the asker may get to ask one day – just for the sake of truth. It will likely be overwhelming and won’t be processed well.
Neither the TaNacH, the Talmud nor their various Mfarshim hide imperfections or rationalize mistakes made by the Avos, Imahos, Moshe Rabbeinu or such personae as David HaMelech or Shlomoh HaMelech. IMO, we err if we present Torah Judaism as some sort of error free way of life, when in fact, there are so many discussions in the Talmud which are presumed to have been on a level of inadvertent, as opposed to a purposeful transgression. The language of the Haggadah is very instructive in setting forth the origins of Klal Yisrael and their emergence from the same. The Talmud is very emphatic on setting forth the background of R Akiva, Resh Lakish and the demise of Acher. We would do well in following this modus operandi as a means of being intellectually honest and demonstrating that Torah greatness is available to anyone and that even a great person can go off the derech.
I am reminded of a famous story of the Chofetz Chaim. One of his students wrote a harsh editorial in an Orthodox newspaper about certain social movements prevalent at that time. The Chofetz Chaim sharply rebuked him for it. The student asked, “but rebbe, you yourself have spoken out against these heresies very harshly.”
The CC answered:
“The difference between you and me is the difference between the householder and the cat. When a house becomes infested with mice, the householder buys a cat. The householder is happy that the cat is chasing the mice, because he wants to rid his house of the mice. The cat, however, is happy because she enjoys the chasing — she has no interest in a mouse-free house.”
Some criticize because they want to improve a situation. Others enjoy tearing someone else down or making others feel low (and themselves better in comparison.)
So the question is, what is the purpose of exposing the “imperfections.”
Cliffs notes for busy blog readers
Sure, Bob. Go say the same thing I said in 1/20th the number of words.
It was the “imperfect” people who were the biggest atraction to me — the “imperfect” people who were trying to get a little bit better and using Torah principles to do so.
Also, Beyond BT is not the only pushcart in the marketplace of ideas. All views will be posted somewhere, so this blog will often need to do damage control.
(Revised) Naturally anyone who begins to get interested will be interested in this blog. Ultimately, however, there are no secrets in our era. Whitewashing reality does no favor to either the Torah, the people of the Torah or people interested in the Torah (I do, however, think Ari’s comments make very good points).
There is a difference between “hiding our imperfections” and asserting editorial control. As usual, left to their own blogs “skeptics” and bitter anti-orthodox critics will always be able to give the impression of a greater degree of “honesty” about their criticism of the frum world. This is frequently an illusion, because these criticisms and “revelations” are almost always based on hearsay, or some portion of the supposed facts — and anyone involved in the investigation of facts or advocacy knows that even one very small unknown thing can make a very, very big difference in how a situation is viewed.
The illusion is far worse than in the usual case of misrepresentation, however, because the anti-frumkeit blogs are not only omniscient and benevolent narrators, but they never actually stand for anything in particular themselves other than what we might call “ethicaliness” — a slippery and amorphous simulated self- righteousness that never defines right or wrong but surely knows the latter when it sees it, leavened of course with mighty helpings of mockery and derision. It makes a fine brew of mutual support for the disenchanted and dysfunctional.
Unfortunately, the harsh truth is that very few people know how to read critically or demolish bogus argumentation — often appearing “brilliant” to the wide-eyed blog groupie by virtue of style, references to lots of pointy-headed perfessers or even flow charts.
In short, the overall background hum regarding the Torah world on too many other sites is overwhelmingly slanted to the negative, and nothing, even what is false, can be “hidden.” So we may as well do our best to acknowledge troubling issues here, and present them with balance and taste, because we are fooling nobody if we pretend to ignore them.
Here’s the last link again, in full (I hope!):
http://www.valuebasedmanagement.net/methods_demingcycle.html
Non-observant Jews do find this site even though it’s really not designed with them in mind. Some are contemplating becoming BTs, while others want to score points for nonobservance.
Potential BTs might see the parallel with Continuous Improvement, a concept found in modern Quality Assurance doctrine:
http://www.valuebasedmanagement.net/methods_dem
ingcycle.html
Obviously, no improvement is possible for someone who is perfect, so imperfection is assumed to exist among us. We can talk about the relative degree or severity of imperfection.
Beyond BTs purpose is definitely to support people who have made some level of commitment and therefore discussing imperfections is necessary.
In a broader context, do you think it makes sense to send a non observant person to the site and expose some of the imperfections of Torah Observant Judaism?
Which is a stronger message?
-We’re closer to perfect than the non-observant?
-We’re far from perfect, but we’re always working on reducing our imperfections.
What is the blog’s purpose? To provide support to people who have made some level of commitment? Or kiruv?
I think it is the former. In which case, candor is in order.
Mark said, “If you look at the posts and the comments you will see that imperfections comprise a tiny minority of Beyond BT’s content.”
In total, yes—but on any given day, or in any given week, negativity can dominate the current discussions.
If you look at the posts and the comments you will see that imperfections comprise a tiny minority of Beyond BT’s content. However any growth oriented person realizes that seeing one’s personal imperfections is the only way to grow.
On the broader question of exposure to the non observant, I think an intelligent case can be presented, so the beginner can understand the imperfections in the context of Judaism’s continual focus on resolving conflicting principles, with an appreciation of the Torah’s directive of constant improvement at all levels.
Not everyone can agree on what is an imperfection. What one person calls an imperfection, another might call a positive feature.
In any case, discussions about things regarded (by somebody) as imperfections can easily become so long and drawn out that the imperfection begins to dominate the blog’s overall content. Any value in saying the same thing for the 101st time over here is rather low.
We also have typical comments showing up no matter what the discussion is actually about. Those, for example, who find the “right wing” approach to halacha oppressive or distorted or poorly applied will find a way to tell us all about that in every conceivable context.
So without going so far as to say that expressions of dissent or concern should never be posted, one could still easily say that their endless repetitions serve no purpose or a negative purpose.
I’ve been reading this site all throughout my path towards observance, and I haven’t read anything yet that scared me off. To be honest, I think anything potentially difficult (like chucking a kitchen’s worth of traif dishes or refraining from driving for 25 hours straight) is less scary when you know what you’re getting yourself into.
Would anyone recommend someone starting law school without researching issues like educational debt load, bar passage rates or levels of dissatisfaction among lawyers with their jobs? Obviously the stakes are much higher when it comes to religion, but then, shouldn’t the initial research be even more in depth, not less?
My only hesitation is that everyone is different. What helps me to alleviate stress might increase someone else’s stress or dissatisfaction. I’m sure kiruv pros are very well aware of this and don’t advocate a one-size fits all approach for new BTs and potential BTs. Or at least, I hope so.
And just a personal vignette: I attended a very “MO” day school in which the overwhelming majority of students came from non-observant homes.
We had one rebbe who was very bright, a bit of a maverick who had once attended Charedi yeshivas and, for various reasons (including those connected to the “imperfections” at issue here) moved more in to the MO camp as he grew older.
As a Jewish history expert with scholarly interests, he had a proclivity towards debunking various “myths” about Jewish history or contemporary societal practice. As I find to be the case with many such people, his points were usually intelligent and rooted in factual analysis. However, his presentation and choice of contexts in which to share his ideas were totally absurd!
On a class trip to Israel, we spent Shavuos night in Yerushalayim. What an opportunity to share the beauty and depth of Torah learning with a group of students from largely non-observant homes. However, this rebbe, who had joined us on the trip, seized the opportunity to present classes on various specialized subjects aimed at criticizing trends w/in Torah learning and thought. One class was titles the “Tidy Torah Theory.” You get the idea.
Even as a high school student (and not too frum myself), I remember thinking that this was such a wasted opportunity and such a petty way to promote an agenda that may have had some objective merit, but whose messages were totally irrelevant to an audience that did not even know what Torah MiSinai meant, did not keep Shabbos and had no really concrete connection to Jewish learning and practice (other than the minumum there were forced to learn in school).
Similarly, with regards to “imperfections” within the frum (read: charedi) community, I find that some people are on an unrelenting mission to publicize and advocate this agenda regardless of the situation or audience. Even though I personally agree with many of these contentions and have serious misgivings myself about certain issues, as a kiruv rabbi I would never share these with students, b/c it is counter-productive and without purpose at that point in their journey. Do they need to learn about the latest intra-community firestorm when they don’t even keep Shabbos, eat kosher or believe in most of the 13 ikkarim?
The difference between and fool and a chochom may not be as much in their grasp of sensitive information but in their relative senses of discretion about when and with whom to share various ideas and problems. Sometimes I feel the same distinction applies to a gadol and an askan, but that’s for another time…
I think it is clear that “imperfections” need to be downplayed during the teshuva process, unless dealing with an unusually perceptive student who is recognizing and questioning these issues.
Exposing negative aspects of a community to a person who does not appreciate their broader context (i.e., the beauty and truth of Torah) is not emes at all! With all of society and all of one’s personal past on the “non-frum” side of the equation, it is unreasonable to expect a newbie to be able to get past this barrier and still become frum. Does the Yetzer need any more excuses?
Additionally, if we believe Torah is TRUE, we should encourage people to make decisions based on that criteria. By disclosing a plethora of unsavory problems, we are focusing the potential BT on these, and invariably their decision will be shaped by them. Again, it is hard enough to become frum by evaluating the objective information to begin with, how much more so when focusing on deficiencies that really have much more to do with human failing than intellectual challenges.
Just as every child goes through a maturing process in which he realizes that his parents are not perfect, so too every BT must go through similar growing pains. Of course, we don’t say that a child should be told when he is 6 about his parent’s deficiencies; rather, he should be allowed to develop his relationship, appreciate the core (essential) beauty of his parents, and grow as a human being, and he will come to these understandings on his own.
If the child-parent relationship is healthy, the grown child will understand that his parents also are human, and he will be able to process their deficiencies in context; his respect and love for them will not be destroyed simply because he will have discovered their “imperfections.”