I’ve been in the frum community for over 12 years and I don’t see the goals of Torah articulated in a clear and consistent way.
Do we accept the premise that the goal of Torah and mitzvos is to come as close to G-d as possible and to help the entire world come close to G-d?
Do our Schools, Shuls and homes stress the goals of Torah, chesed and mitzvos is to get closer to Hashem or have these activities become disconnected from their ultimate goal?
“Gal Goalless”
OK, Jaded, until they make us “take it offline”!
2) Of course not, but what does in human, much less communal, affairs?
3) That I am glad we had this little talk.
4) No, thanks, cutting back.
5) I don’t think anyone would.
5a)
It doesn’t fix, but it does suggest that the issue of matching schools and students is not so one-sided an affair as you imply.
As long as we are at all listening to our principles, Jaded, there is hope!
5b) Are you trying to hem me in, then?
7) Oh, ok. But then they’re in the same boat as working men, right?
Ruth, regarding your comment #36
I don’t understand your point?
What if the diet makes you miserable?
And you’re not even sure if the diet even makes sense as some parts are not logical ?
Ron, in response to your comment #40 :
2) So since “Actually most people do, but maybe not in the way you mean†we can concur that this makes perfect spiritual for the sake of G-d sense?
3) And how does that make you feel?
4 Did you want fries with that?
5) Who would.
5a)How does this fix the original question.These are two independent issues. Or do the students get picky and concerned with the imagined image of the schools, only and or as a direct result of the pansies for principals , being self righteous and picky when deciding which non ruffled pious petunias will be their next crop of pride and joys.( the flower analogy is even funnier on a personal level cuz many moons ago around this time of year one of my principles gave me a little lecture on different flowers growing in different soils…)
5b)The edges are kind of fraying at the fringes.
7)working women are females that are gainfully employed and cannot take off for some exclusive expensive spiritual semesters with torah scholars in faraway lands.
To do bold, Steve, type in this, but without the extra space:
< b>
For italics, do this:
< i>
Many other tricks are available if you just search for guides to HTML. Of course the blogging software and admin choices typically limit what HTML is allowed in comments.
Your comment no. 43 looks like it belongs in the “chart” post!
Admin Note: You also need a closing < /i> or < /b>
One topic which we are all discussing here, but not really saying directly, is, what is the degree to which our actions as Jews are governed by social affiliation, rather than spiritual motivation. There is nothing at all wrong with having both motivations at once. Are we always creating a spiritual life if we do certain things which are done just to make us seem upstanding in the mundane social activities of the community? sometimes, the answer may be NO.
However, there’s nothing actually wrong with having certain conventions, social norms, protocols, etc, as a community, and utilizing them to a degree within some of our religious processes as well. that is perfectly ok. the only problem is when we fail to distinguish spirituality as a goal in and of itself, from the more mundane social practices we may do, or when we fail to realize that some of our habitual activities are not designed to be spiritual, and in fact there is not always reason that they should be anyway.
Equating everything that the frum community does with spirituality is not as effective as realizing that we as a community do have some healthy social habits which are perfectly fine, but which should not mixed up with a person’s underlying search for spirituality. Being able to discuss the two separately is much better than pretending they are the same thing.
Thus for example, certain aspects of frum community life, such as charity benefits, processes for finding shidduchim, etc, can be accepted, and also discussed openly, without feeling that one either needs to defend their “spiritual†content, or, alternately, that any critics are necessarily “attacking†their spiritual worth.
I hope I’ve adequately explained some of my viewpoint. I don’t wish to excessively write out my post here, in fairness to others here. thanks.
Question:
PS. By the way, how do i do the italics? I have looked for this information several times, but have not found it. thanks.
Gosh, it’s great how we’re all agreeing on everything here. i wonder how long we’re all going to keep talking past each other, and ignoring the implicit meaning of what each of us is saying.
Ron, the way to make your post free of ”criticism”, and subject instead to a free-ranging ”discussion”, is to also place your heartfelt feelings here, as this original poster did. (I’m not saying that you don’t do that already, I’m responding to your point, [perhaps a bit baroquely]. :-) )
I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with the following exchange. however, in my experience, discussions about frumkeit frequently degenerate into simple disingenuousness, where each person knows what the other one means but pretends not to. So one perseon decries (for example) ostentatiousness, meaning something specific; while the other person agrees them, meaning they dislike ostentatiousness, ie, the concept itself. So discussion circles around the real point without tackling it head on. that is what to me might be slightly at work in the exchange below. (I’m not trying to be overly nit-picky with a single post here, but just trying to use it to note a general trend which I’ve also seen elsewhere.)
Quoted from above:
For starters I judge schools by the prerequisites they require before acceptance.
Actually most people do, but maybe not in the way you mean.
3) Many place the emphasis on the wrong syllabus starting with the kindergarten admission procedures.
Maybe. Maybe!
4) I do love hardcore learning without the costumes and other emotional / material nonsense.
That sounds good!
…etc, etc. it’s great to be agreeable, but perhaps some specific engagement on some specific points raised here might also be useful. thanks.
Hi, Neil. I already have a Tanach!
Steve, you write, “it seems basically unhelpful for anyone to directly criticize any aspect of this post.” I guess I have no idea what to do with such a proposition. How can I get my posts to also be exempt from criticism?
You also seem to disagree with me about whether the post had strong and significant negative connotations about the frum world. Okay, we can agree to disagree.
Hi, Jaded. If I may, briefly:
1) Do thank you cards have to be modest, just curious.
Yes.
2) For starters I judge schools by the prerequisites they require before acceptance.
Actually most people do, but maybe not in the way you mean.
3) Many place the emphasis on the wrong syllabus starting with the kindergarten admission procedures.
Maybe. Maybe!
4) I do love hardcore learning without the costumes and other emotional / material nonsense.
That sounds good!
5) On a global level, not specifically your town, how could any organized religious institution whose supposed goal is to provide a torah education run their show with pansies for principles, stale statutes, outrageous rules and muddy amendments( in figurative purple prose), that contradict torah concepts for starters.
I don’t know.
In many instances it’s the image of their school i.e. their personal pride and joy they are most concerned about.
That is almost certainly true, although sometimes the parents or older students themselves are equally concerned with image as opposed to choosing the right school for them.
I would cite case histories past, present and current, but I don’t think I need to at this point in thread space.
Glad we’ve sewn up that part!
6) Did you want me to do an in depth piece on the admission procedures of all religious schools in the New York and New Jersey area? This way we could factually ascertain what exactly is important to which schools and WHY.
That would be interesting, though it may not be a topic for this blog.
7) I’m not sure what your point is about working women and Torah learning with real Torah scholars? The same questions still remain about women in Orthodox Judaism; you can pick any town or city for your answers it doesn’t have to be Passaic.
I don’t know what you mean about “working women.” I agree with you there are some hard questions, especially regarding learning. I don’t have the answers to them. If I had any daughters I might have those answers, but I still might not.
By the way, upon rereading my post, please forgive any parts which may have apepared to overly refer to the word “you” or any other word which is individual in anture. i meant what i said, but I would hope not to direct it at any one person here, but rather at all of us here, in order to make discussion as constructive and as open as possible. thanks.
Ron, you wrote:
“Why are we so regularly slamming the frum world around here? “I don’t see the goals of Torah articulated in a clear and consistent way.†I don’t understand this question at all, about “goals.—
“More and more I am reading submissions and comments that suggest that some of us believe the “frum world†owes us something. It is true that kol yisroel areivim ze l’zeh — all Jews are guarantors, or responsible for, each other — but that does not mean what some people seem to think. And it is not a one-way street.”
If someone is expressing their own heartfelt concerns and goals, it really is not appropriate for you to start bashing their post, and saying they are bashing the frum world. they didn’t say a single negative word
about the frum world. is there some reason you are bothered by clear and open feedback about an obviously relevant topic. I would like to suggest to everyone here that we be open to the topics which others may raise here. replying strongly to any post usually indicates that ujnderneath, we do understand what they’re talking about, even if we may not say so.
None of you is reading the original post. “I’ve been part iof the frum world for 12 years.” Not “I WAS part…” obviously, he is still part of it. he is reporting his own empirical experience.
Ron, it seems basically unhelpful for anyone to directly criticize any aspect of this post. this person is reporting their own direct experiences, on a website specifically designed to do so. they clearly are trying to start a discussion.
I do acknowledge the replies here which try to describe their own more positive experiences. obviously, it is hard to get any definitive quantitative data on something like this. so it does seem appropriate to share some anecdotal experiences, even if there is not one clear answer.
Jaded,
I guess I didn’t express myself well enough.
My point was not that we shouldn’t want to cultivate a closeness to Hashem or realize that He loves us. It’s that we should also see the mitzvos as not just a means to a goal but as of great value in themselves because they are divine. It is because Hashem loves us that He has given us the perfect tools (Torah and mitzvos) to live meaningful lives.
Let’s say I have the goal of losing 20 pounds and I choose a diet that should get me there. If I don’t lose weight, I will chuck the diet, because it was only the means to my goal. Now if the diet was good in itself, i.e. kept me from getting sick and made me feel much better, I might stick with it even if I didn’t achieve the weight loss I had hoped for.
Too many people don’t feel that they have a relationship with Hashem even when they’re doing mitzvos, or don’t feel they are achieving that goal fast enough. I think they should be encouraged to keep going anyway because of the intrinsic value of Torah.
Mark, I totally agree with your sentences.
Ron, my points are as follows ;
1)Papyrus is the perfect place to get the most awesome thank you cards. They come in sets of 12 so you can get them in mass quantities for all the frum folk you’re thanking. Do thank you cards have to be modest, just curious.
2) For starters I judge schools by the prerequisites they require before acceptance.
3)Many place the emphasis on the wrong syllabus starting with the kindergarten admission procedures.
4)I do love hardcore learning without the costumes and other emotional/ material nonsense.
5)On a global level, not specifically your town, how could any organized religious institution whose supposed goal is to provide a torah education run their show with pansies for principles, stale statutes, outrageous rules and muddy amendments( in figurative purple prose), that contradict torah concepts for starters. In many instances its the image of their school ie their personal pride and joy they are most concerned about.
I would cite case histories past, present and current, but I don’t think I need to at this point in thread space.
6)Did you want me to do an in depth piece on the admission procedures of all religious schools in the New York and New Jersey area? This way we could factually ascertain what exactly is important to which schools and WHY.
7)I’m not sure what your point is about working women and Torah learning with real Torah scholars? The same questions still remain about women in Orthodox Judaism; you can pick any town or city for your answers it doesn’t have to be Passaic.
Ruth ,
Why would anyone care about what G-d wants?
You think that by focusing exclusively on doing the “mitzvos†this fabricated focus suddenly breeds an innate want to do G-d’s will? Isn’t it just as hard to do G-d’s will cuz well that’s what he commanded as it is to recognize/believe in him and feel that he cares cuz he supposedly he loves you ?
I would think doing “mitvos†cuz some Father in the sky wants it that way is not any better than doing the “mitvos†to get closer to G-d. Both require some of the same elements of faith and related spiritual inclinations, risks, focus and discipline.
Commandments give me a headache so it makes more sense to do them in the hopes of cultivating closeness to some father in the sky than do them cuz well someone commanded me to do them.
Bob, Our task is to perform HaShem’s instructions for us. The instructions are the mitzvos, and everybody agrees they must be performed. But intent and purpose are important parts of their fulfillment and can greatly change the impact of the mitzos.
There are many area in the Torah where the point of view of man and Hashem are contrasted. For example Pesach refers to Hashem passing over us, while Chag HaMatzos refers to our part in the mitzvah.
On a serious note, if you want institutions (aside from your own family) to make things like emunah, middos, achdus, the ikar then speak with those who are on the boards of directors, or join a committee. Most principals, and lay leaders in organizations are open to suggestions and postive options.
An uplifting Shavuos to all!
Ron,
If you’re looking for a great sefer that condemns the frum world, email me. :)
“The Chasidish world view is also not rooted in Ramchal and they focus more on Hashem’s purpose rather than the purpose of man.”
Isn’t our purpose to align ourselves with HaShem’s instructions for us?
Ruth, Good point about young children and perhaps even some older ones getting discouraged when they don’t feel a closeness.
Although Ramchal’s seforim themselves are a little difficult for most children, the fundamentals of Yiddishkeit are important to learn before Bar/Bas Mitzvah. Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan’s Handbook of Jewish Thought is a modern day expanded and fully referenced version of Derech Hashem and I highly recommend it. (Note R’ Kaplan translated Derech Hashem into an accessible English).
Mark,
My problem with the post was that it said “the goal of Torah and mitzvos.” There is, to me, a difference between that and our goal in life.
I still think that it is not the best idea to stress this as being the only goal to young children. I think it might lead to their being turned off to Yiddishkeit when they don’t feel a closeness to Hashem. Most of them are not ready for Ramchal.
Ruth,
Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzato (Ramchal) says in Chapter 1 in Mesillas Yesharim:
Our Sages of blessed memory have taught us that man was created for the sole purpose of rejoicing in God and deriving pleasure from the splendor of His Presence; for this is true joy and the greatest pleasure that can be found. The place where this joy may truly be derived is the World to Come, which was expressly created to provide for it; but the path to the object of our desires is this world, as our Sages of blessed memory have said (Avorh 4:21), “This world is like a corridor to the World to Come.â€
The means which lead a man to this goal are the mitzvoth, in relation to which we were commanded by the Lord, may His Name be blessed. The place of the performance of the mitzvoth is this world alone.
The goal is rejoicing and getting close to Hashem and the means are the mitzvos. The Ramchal makes this point repeatedly in Derech Hashem.
Ramchal was rooted in the Kabbalah and his teachings, especially Mesillas Yesharim, are mainstays of the Yeshiva World.
The Modern Orthodox world view is not as rooted in the Ramchal and is more focused on Mitzvah performance in itself without attributing a higher purpose to creation.
The Chasidish world view is also not rooted in Ramchal and they focus more on Hashem’s purpose rather than the purpose of man.
Jaded, a good friend recently taught me to ask — what is the question, really, here? You seem to have asked a bunch of ’em, but I think it is one question that raises two issues. Here’s my characterization of your “real” question, and please forgive my presumptuousness in guessing at what you “really” mean:
Now what I just wrote is not a summary; it’s probably more words than you typed. But I have tried to get at your real argument here. Have I succeeded?
Ron Coleman,
What frum planet are you living in? It’s great you have so many frum people to thank; I hear the Papyrus card store has quite the selection of thank you cards.
But how does this fix the fact that many frum folk are forgetting there is a forest and focusing exclusively on the trees and how to best swat away and or snap the branches of competing branches blocking their sun.
Ok, Passaic might actually be an exception in more ways than none.
I did live in Passaic for a month actually, lots of really sincere, good people in Passaic.
Aside from the adorable houses (when I eventually grow up I’m so getting one of those cute pastel colored Victorian ones with a porch to turn into a cottage/ loft) and its close proximity to NYC , I do know/used to know quite a few quality frum guys from Passaic.
So let’s say I find my conservative or unaffiliated, better half, get married one day, move to Passaic and have a kid, I have a few quick goal questions for you.
How does it work with the schools in your community?
Do they all accept every sincere kid looking for a Jewish education?
If they don’t, (other than “space†issues) why on earth not?
What is the exact purpose of Jewish Schools in 2008?
If the house I would run would basically conform to traditional halachah, recognize and work on my relationship with G-d, open up my own bais medrash , but dress according to my mood and prefer the mixed houses of worship among other conservative leanings, would the school “hanhalah†accept my little Jade and or Johnny looking for a place in the yeshiva kindergarten.
I would hope Abercrombie Jeans and sequined H&M tank tops casual attire would not be part of the “will my little Jade and or Johnny be accepted have a Jewish education “equation.
Something tells me it would not be so simple to get my little Jade and or Johnny educated in the yeshiva schools in Passaic.
How do the Daf Yomi’s in Passaic, work any of them allow women to attend?
How about the mussar lectures, are they for men only?
Please describe the intellectual inspiration available for women in your community.
How do your houses of worship accommodate women that don’t like being partitioned off into a corner?
Are there house of worship bais medrash learning programs?
Are women allowed to join?
What kind of scholars in residence does your house of worship host on the weekends ?
I’ve been spending the last few days wondering why I found this post so disturbing. And I think it is this sentence especially: “Do we accept the premise that the goal of Torah and mitzvos is to come as close to G-d as possible and to help the entire world come close to G-d?”
No, I don’t accept that premise, certainly not that it is “the” goal. I believe that the Torah is the word of G-d and the mitzvos His intructions to me on how to live my life. It would be presumptuous of me state, in a sound bite, what His goal is. After studying the Torah, I might speculate on what I think one of His goals might be (I am sure there are more than one) and I might notice that the effect of learning Torah and doing mitzvos is to make me closer to G-d.
Our schools are teaching that we should learn Torah and do mitzvos because that is what Hashem wants us to do. Is that enough for our children, for us? Maybe not. We’re Americans. We like to be independent. We want to know, “What’s in it for me?” But ideally, that’s not the level of Judaism we should be striving for. We should want to be “avdei Hashem.” We should do the right thing even if there’s no reward, even if we don’t feel closer to Hashem in the process.
Perhaps, Ron, Goalless and R Horowitz in general are referring to, and are more familiar with, the larger institutions in Brooklyn, Monsey and Lakewood, where huge numbers of children are educated.
For all our pride in Passaic, I frankly think it is a blip on their screen.
What do I know? And when do I know it?
Ah, Bob, who are you to say? ;-)
It’s said that this generation (whatever that is) has problems accepting rebuke. That’s a fact with many causes.
These days, the most effective mussar is for oneself. When blog authors, commenters and administrators, etc., try to deliver mussar to other individuals or groups, things often don’t play out as intended.
You mean I didn’t get your drift, Ron? Actually I felt it quite breezily!
Lest there be any doubt, I hereby declare: Count my vote against “general carping about broad sectors of ‘the frum world’ and for constructing the BHM “one constructive ctiticism at a time”
Hi, misnaged. B”H, yes, it’s all for the good. I am entirely in favor of the redemption, await it every day, and hope every thing we do is, as my children say it when they come home from school with their beautiful emunah B”AH, believe every such good thing is another brick in the rebuilt and final Bais Hamidkosh.
In more general, I regret that this thread became contentious. It’s my fault, I guess. Maybe Bob and Belle get my drift, though. It is not in any way a derogation of our need to improve individually, communally and blogaciously to say that general carping about broad sectors of “the frum world” gets me a little defensive. This is not only because I am and, for more than half of my life, have been part of it, but also because, as I said originally, we should be wary of displaying ingratitude — for social and communal reasons, and personal and spiritual ones, too.
Notwithstanding Mark’s admittedly well-directed comments (maybe I’m just a lousy but lovable hypocrite?) I believe you have to be somewhat specific when kvetching. This is not only more constructive but narrows the complaint and may lead to less emotional rejection by guys like me, because you aren’t slamming “everything I stand for” and taking what seems like a rather presumptuous attitude of, ironically, superiority.
So, hey: What particular practices annoy you, Goalless? What is it you think should be done differently? What experience or expertise or insight or talent is your suggestion based on? How are you prepared to help? Whom have you discussed this with already, and what kind of reaction did you get? What would the realization of the goals you’ve enunciated make our reality look like?
It isn’t enough to just show up and do your thing. I didn’t mean to suggest that it is. Let’s construct the Bais Hamikdosh one constructive criticism at a time!
Ron is onto something. Readers who have made a reasonably good transition into the “frum world” take a lot of the assaults on that world personally. It’s true that other people can have other experiences, but some of these assaults seem to be based on hearsay, scuttlebutt, and exposure to the less august blogs, as opposed to direct personal experience. And, yes, I can’t be 100% sure of that, but I can be right now and then.
RON,
Ramban says the entire world is on a balance. Each good act and mitzvah we do helps tip the scales to the positive.
What happens when we tip the scales to the positive? Moshiach will come!!!!!!!
Open your eyes and you will see the amount of goodness in this world everyday. For example, Saudi Arabia is going to contribute to the world food program. That’s just the tip of the iceberg of goodness. Look at how India and China are slowly changing for the good. Look at how Russia is no longer a Communist State. Every small act will hasten the arrival of the Redemption.
Mark, I would hope that by now you’d be adding the Nesivos to your list of sfarim kdoishim that emphasize Mitzvos as means. He shows, with amazing lucidity, that not only might one immerse into the multitudinous beauty and grandeur of the Mitzva “trees”, as it were, losing sight of the forest, but one may even be damaged by such Observance! It’s like beautifying a body while taking out it’s heart…
Still, I agree that the amazing way the frum world has made the “body” of Mitzvah observance available and meaningful should never be underestimated.
Who am I to disagree with the Ramchal?
Just to be clear, I was just pointing out that the standards that you are requiring are unreasonable and are rarely met on this site and every other Torah opinion site on the net. But I love your posts and I take your opinions seriously even without real specifics and although you’ve only been frum for 20-25 years.
Attacking the poster seems a little off. If they were frum for 42 years instead of 12, would that change the point or just your opinion of their right to express it?
But back to the main point. I totally agree that Klal Yisroel is bursting with chesed, ahavas torah and emunah. In fact at the Torah Umesorah convention, that was the paradox every one of the Gedolim and Rebbeim dealt with – we’re doing great but we need to do better.
They all highlighted problems in instilling Emunah and had different approaches on how to address the issue.
You could dismiss these specifics opinions as well on the grounds that many of these Rebbeim never visited your school in Passaic and they therefore have no basis to say that we have problems with Emunah in the average school.
Perhaps we can take one productive thing from this and to try to clarify a premise of the question.
Are mitzvos the goal as you laid out in your first comment or are they the primary means to reaching the goal of getting close to Hashem? From my understanding of the Ramchal and Bilvavi, mitzvos are the means and getting close to Hashem is the goal. I would be interested in whether you truly disagree with this, and if so is it because you are learning the Ramchal differently or are you disagreeing with the Ramchal?
Maybe, Mark. Try it. I pity the fool! ;-)
But I am not asking here for peer-reviewed double-blind control studies. I am asking for… well, the kind of “specifics” you have just provided in your observation which happens to be from someone with a little more than a dozen BT years on the scene and unique qualifications to opine on this topic. Good.
Yet I will respond this way: In over a decade of involvement of the yeshiva ketana of Passaic, I am not aware of any interaction between that institution and Rabbi Horowitz. I have many opportunities to interact with the hanhola there at ever level, and none of them have mentioned it to me. Maybe my children’s school is not “average”? I hope from what Rabbi Horowitz is telling you that their emunah isn’t.
In fact — and I say this as a huge fan of Rabbi Horowitz’s columns who pumps his fists while reading them! — I wonder how he is in a position to possibly know what is on the agenda of “the average school” in any meaningfully representative way, or how he defines “the average school” — despite his very extensive and painful experience, largely (as he describes it) in dealing with the system’s failures.
I’m proud to guess that he would probably be surprised by the answers to his questions at our “average school.”
Mark, I’m not just being a noodge. You think my posts are based on similar blanket generalizations? I think I can demonstrate to you that you are mistaken. I linked to my haredim in Israel post before. The fact is, there I backed up my assertions by reference to numerous newspapers articles that were, themselves, very specific. At the time I wrote it I did not have the patience to code in the links to the actual articles, but everyone reading the piece at the time had a good idea of what I was writing about. I also backed up my observations with analysis that was premised on facts that could easily be proved or disproved by anyone motivated enough to do so. Argument with my assertions could then proceed from that point — and much did.
Maybe my other posts are mushier! There’s room for all of us here under the Tent o’ Torah. But when someone announces that, after twelve years, he’s decided the Jewish people isn’t showing him what he’s looking for goals-wise, and, frankly, two nights after coming home from an uplifting and inspiring school dinner that demonstrated to me that, to the contrary of the assertions, klal yisroel is bursting with chesed, ahavas torah and, yes, emunah, I’m going to take it the wrong way.
Asking for facts and figures in a discussion shows some subterfuge on your part as we know there are few facts and figures on anything in the Torah world and when there are, they always come under extreme fire.
I can go through any post or argument you’ve ever made about the frum world and ask you for facts and figures (not anecdotes) and totally end the conversation. So let’s cut that nonsense for now. (I just want to stop at this point and say that I love Ron and he is one of my favorite dedicated Jews). Now where was I.
I’ll give you two examples from experienced educators instead for now.
Rabbi Horowitz recently told me at Torah UMesorah that one strong reason that we have problems with Emunah is that it is not even on the average schools agenda. Go ask teachers and principals what the goals are for their schools and see their responses. If anybody tells you that they want to set their students on the path of getting as close to Hashem as possible, then I’ll eat my hat (not really, but you get the point).
Listen to Rebbetzin Heller’s Chinuch Habonos tape where she points out that for girls who don’t have a chiyuv of Talmud L’Shma, every lesson needs to have a U V’Chein (a therefore lesson). I know you have only boys, but ask your Bais Yaakov’s if their Torah learning in Rashi, Ramban or Navi always has an applicable lesson and they’ll look at you like your from Mars (or Venus, I always forget where men are from).
Emphasizing Emunah and getting closer to Hashem is not on the main agenda.
Your serve.
Mark, we for sure are not communicating here.
I am not advocating accepting the status quo, either personally, or for the community. Or, for that matter, for you. I mean, seriously! ;-)
I am suggesting merely that broad-gauged assaults on the “frum world” are not constructive ways to achieve improvement, or even to initiate a fruitful discussion. Especially when they sound, when read literally, as if they may actually be factually incorrect. As in, wrong.
Maybe I’m wrong. Demonstrate it. Show me how “schools, Shuls and homes” are failing to meet this “goal.” I’m not even asking you to show me that “the goal” is actually correctly identified; I’ll stipulate. But make the argument with reference to facts, and ideally figures, so that I can see some semblance of cause and effect and some broad applicability to “schools, Shuls and homes.” Then let’s rock.
My apologies to Ron and Belle. Everybody has their hot buttons, mine is seeing complacency in people I highly respect.
Actually if you read Bilvavi he is making the point that if we’re not working on the goal of getting closer to Hashem as elucidated clearly in Mesillas Yesharim and Derech Hashem then we’re missing the boat. Mitzvos are the means, not the goal. (Although I don’t know if that was the letter writers point of departure.)
I know it was an uncomfortable message for me as it is for most of the people I’ve discussed this with.
Knowing the question writer, I don’t think he was focused so much on the failings of the frum community as on the question itself, but I am dismayed at the chorus of silencers his question evoked.
I had the pleasure of seeing Rabbi Horowitz today and if you’ve been following his recent writings in Mishpacha and on his site, then you know he is under heavy criticism for questioning the status-quo. And I know that here on Beyond BT we’ve received our share of letters complaining about our questioning of the status-quo.
I agree with Belle, that being active in trying to address the problems is healthy, but I don’t think everybody is cut out to be an activist and I think that even if you don’t fall under that banner you have a right to voice your opinion.
In any case, let’s keep on introspecting and growing together!
I didn’t say Bilvavi is condemning the frum world.
I didn’t read the sefer, though I downloaded it. (And although my reading of it may tarry…) But I don’t think what he wrote in his sefer is comparable to the accusations against “the frum world,” and in particular “our Schools, Shuls and homes” in this post.
There’s a way to talk and write about introspection without pointing fingers. The tone and frankly the plain meaning of this post is, “The frum world isn’t cutting it. I’ve been ‘in’ it for twelve years so I think it’s about time I set the frum world straight.”
It’s not as if I never criticize “the frum world” here, by the way. And I may not have waited twelve years to do so. But this really is a blanket accusation. Someone who has spent all of a dozen years “in” the frum world finds “the frum world wanting,” and how? They are not sufficiently “goal” oriented.
My shul has certain goals which, from what I can tell, it meets well. Those goals are to provide a pleasant and inspiring atmosphere for traditional Jewish prayer. My childrens’ schools are in the chinuch business, and their goal is to teach children Torah and secular subjects; I have many desiderata on this topic but that goal strikes me as appropriate and mainly one that those schools meet. I will skip the homes part.
Look, in another recent thread I explained why I think someone could justify “judging” a situation — not individuals — i.e., Pesach spent in hotels. Or at least evaluate it, considering the pluses and minuses. I understand that and I am all in favor of it.
Here there is a very serious accusation against “the frum world” by a relative newcomer who has it all figured out, but it does not in any way develop an argument, such as, “The goals of Torah, chesed and mitzvos is to get closer to Hashem. [Source.] I do not see that goal being stressed in shuls; instead I see ____. Even when the correct goals are stressed, they are not done so clearly and consistently, as demonstrated by ____. I know this argument may be applied beyond my narrow experience in X number of shuls because ____.”
That is how we make an argument.
(I recognize that I may be guilty, by the way, of some of the same inclination toward generalized condemnation in some of my own posts, such as the one about the haredi world in EY. I do believe I enunciated a more subtle and detailed argument, however. On the other hand, I also acknowledge that some people have to work for a living and not everyone spits out pixels the way some of us do.)
I must say I had the same reaction as Ron when I read the question and the first few comments. Perhaps the initial question sounded like a condemnation rather than a true question seeking contemplation and discussion. The cynicism and broadside attacks about the “frum world” (whomever that might be) are getting tired. I think people believe in some sort of conspiracy theory about the “frum world” as if there is some committee somewhere deciding what is and is not to be taught, spoken about, etc.
What I know and have experienced in my 20-something frum years, is that whoever wants to make a contribution, and is talented enough to have people listen to him or her, can. I was in seminary in eretz Israel many moons ago, and my hubby was in yeshiva, with many people who are now people of some influence in the frum world: mekarvim of note, educators hailed by the “frum world,” rebbeim, authors, etc. All baalei teshuva (except one whom I am thinking of but who was profoundly influenced by the baal teshuva yeshiva he learned at for awhile).
If you think something is not being spoken about enough, then do something about it!
I’d like to add that it is the parent’s obligation to give hashkafa and values over to their children, and they should never solely rely on any institution to communicate such fundamentally important values. No institution can produce the same results as parental input.
In general I believe it is everyone’s challenge in life to keep in sight the bigger picture when life becomes busy, challenging and stressful. That what this journey is all about. To complain about it, or to blame a “community” for its lackings, is just excuses. There is no shortage of seforim/shiurim discussing what our goals should be. This website lists Rebbitzen Heller and other speakers who regularly speak of hashkafic/larger issues.
And I am surprised at the Administrator’s sarcasm/cynicism. I don’t think Ron was advocating ignoring uncomfortable mussar or ignoring concepts like cleaving to Hashem. I think Ron caught the tenor of cynicism in the question and comment thread and responded to that. But Ron doesn’t need my defense!
Ron
Did you ever read Bilvavi Mishkan Evneh by an author who is extremely welled versed in the Ramchal.
In the sefer, the author states that if a person is not consciously working on continual awareness of Hashem, then he is in for a big surprise when he gets to Gan Eden. He says that a person can be fully dedicated to Torah and mitzvos but without focusing on Emunah and G-d awareness he is missing the point of the mitzvos.
I don’t think Bilvavi is condemning the Frum world, just issuing a wake up call. He’s probably sorry that he is causing us discomfort, so maybe we should just carry on with business as usual.
Michal, I favor Moshiach’s arrival. Indeed, I believe with perfect faith in it, and notwithstanding that he may tarry, I still await it eagerly.
Message to Ron: I got this info. from Ask Moses.com.
Someone emailed this question to the above website: “What can we do to bring Moshiach”
This is the answer:
“The Talmud1 relates: Rabbi Yehoshua Ben Levi once met Moshiach at the gates of Rome and asked him when he would come. Moshiach responded, Today! That day passed and Moshiach did not come. The Rabbi was disappointed and complained to Elijah, “Moshiach lied to me; he said he would come today, and he didn’t”. Elijah explained “Moshiach was [quoting a verse2] saying, ‘Today, if you hearken to My voice’.
The secret is out: hearkening to His voice, increasing our fulfillment of G-d’s commandments, can bring Moshiach today.”
1. Talmud tractate Sanhedrin 98a
The Lubavitcher Rebbe often said “Moshiach is already on his way, and we need merely hasten his arrival with wanton acts of goodness and kindness”.
People who don’t work hard looking for real meaning in Yiddishkeit may not find it, whether they live in Israel or elsewhere. Whoever said something this important would be easy?
Step 1 is to check negative stereotypes at the door. One depressing feature of the Web in general is its endless production and recycling of such stereotypes about Jewish society. People exposed to these often think they know something about the subject.
We do not do mitzvos “in order to bring Moshiach.” Where does it say such a thing?
Dan, many great Jews, including among them many profound talmidei chachomim, also disagreed with your assertion — profoundly.
Why are we so regularly slamming the frum world around here? “I don’t see the goals of Torah articulated in a clear and consistent way.” I don’t understand this question at all, about “goals.” I find getting out of bed, making it to minyan on time and maybe two more times before I get back into bed, having a learning seder, keeping kosher, rearing and educating my children, fulfilling the full range of commitments to my wife and doing so with love and affection, paying my bills or some negotiable portion of them on time, helping out a neighbor or friend whenever I can, maintaining standards of civility, modesty and honesty, having Shabbos guests when possible, honoring my father and mother, not stealing, not kidnapping, having no other gods before Hashem, not taking Hashem’s Name in vain, holding of the unity of Hashem …
and a few other things like this…
to be exhausting and ambitious goals to fulfill even in their minimum measure. Sometimes I acknowledge I do some of them even better than that. Regarding others, I fall short.
Why aren’t these sufficient “goals” for a Jew?
If we keep the mitzvos, Hashem will handle the programming. To the extent we are looking for more “big picture” involvement, there are well established Jewish organizations with clear and meritorious goals — outreach, education, charity, etc. — in which any of us can get ourselves involved.
More and more I am reading submissions and comments that suggest that some of us believe the “frum world” owes us something. It is true that kol yisroel areivim ze l’zeh — all Jews are guarantors, or responsible for, each other — but that does not mean what some people seem to think. And it is not a one-way street.
I want to thank the “frum world” for building great institutions without any help, and in some cases with opposition, from my family and relatively immediate ancestors.
I want to thank the “frum world” for accepting me and my family into it, despite its own traumatic experiences, on our merits, or despite a lack of them as may be the case.
I want to thank the “frum world” for every Shabbos meal given to me, a stranger from a strange place with strange ideas and a vocabulary and level of sensitivity that needed a lot of improvement.
I want to thank the “frum world” for generating and sharing vast amounts of wealth to build edifices and organizations without which my life would be immensely poorer, and which I could never build myself.
I want to thank the “frum world” for inspiring me so often and so well.
Thank you, “frum world.” I can never repay you.
We are goal-less in galut.
If our goal was to bring the gueoula and build a mamlechet kohanim vegoy kadosh, we wouldn’t be staying here in chutz laaretz while the mamalechet kohanim is being built in Israel.
Any honest person in chutz laaretz will tell you his goal is to learn well and be “shtark”. Why? Well, hopefully because he believes its the right thing to do (without knowing why) but sometimes even just because it looks good in his community.
Sorry for all the skepticism, I’m usually more positive :-)
http://www.tzipiyah.com
Our goal now is to bring increase in acts of goodness and kindness in order to bring MOSHIACH!
Study Chassidus!
This is coming from a big misnaged!