The conventional wisdom says that when you converse with a non-observant person, you should avoid indicating that you think it would benefit the person to become Torah Observant over time.
What if this wasn’t the conventional wisdom and you could discuss the benefits of Torah Observance to non-frum people, what would you say?
“…but it would still be a tough sell to somebody who is emotionally healthy and already fulfilled in their work and community.”
Excellent point. And that is why “kiruv” tends to be more successful with — i.e., prey upon — people who are a) not emotionally healthy and/or b) not fulfilled in their work or community.
Some people would be so arrogant as to claim that the reason for someone lacking emotional health or professional/social fulfillment is because they are not frum. Those people are the ones who often end up doing kiruv, and doing much more damage than they will ever realize.
Wow. I’d like to add my two cents as a giyores of more than 20 years who converted after my marriage. For what it’s worth, I wear a sheitel, don’t have a television, keep chalav yisrael, etc..
First of all, I find it pretty offensive when assumptions are made about the sincerity or lack thereof of any convert. This is true whether the convert was married or not at the time of conversion. Hashem didn’t put me into a position to even know an orthodox Jew until after marriage, so clearly this is the path He had in mind for me. If one becomes convinced of the emes after one is married, are you just going to say “too bad, so sad” – should have figured out that this was your path in life beforehand (even if one had no exposure beforehand)?
The responsa and some of the statements I’ve read on blogs have often been out of context. There is a distinction made between converting FOR THE SAKE OF MARRIAGE versus converting after marriage. At that point you are already married, so it clearly isn’t for the sake of marriage! In fact, my husband’s parents were aghast that I converted orthodox (and my husband became frum as well).
This endless scrutiny of converts is so destructive. Don’t kid yourselves, even when it isnt personal, and even 8 kids and many years later, it still hurts to see how little acceptance there is.
Changing topics slightly…
I think it is a dangerous approach to take in kiruv to try to go convince somebody how miserable and shallow his life is and how much more meaningful and pleasurable it will be if he just becomes frum.
First of all, maybe the person feels like he has a perfectly meaningful and enjoyable life already. I can name many of our family members, both secular Jews and non-Jews, who do serious meaningful work, are active in volunteering, and have rich enjoyable lives. Do I think Torah would enhance those feelings? Generally, yes, but it would still be a tough sell to somebody who is emotionally healthy and already fulfilled in their work and community.
Secondly, there’s no guarantee that you’ll have more pleasure if you become frum. Let’s face it – there are challenges that come with frumkeit – the financial strain of tuition for the children, professional limitations, even wearing a sheitel is not so easy for many – not to mention the difficulty sometimes encountered in integrating into a community. I’ve seen people become BT or convert and be miserable because they weren’t prepared for the reality of some of these challenges.
Personally, I think emes is the only real foundation for kiruv. If it is true, then it doesn’t matter how difficult or pleasant it is. Truth can sustain one through the lowest points. People who become frum from emotion rather than reason may leave from emotion rather than reason.
As one of my favorite rabbis once said, “He who lives by the cholent, dies by the cholent.”
Of course, we are not automatons, and emotion inevitably creeps into everything, and I’m happy that it does (I still tear up when my husband bentches the children on shabbos – I’m really a big mushball, lol), but my point is that a foundation built on intellect will probably be much sturdier than any other.
Ignorance is bliss.
Judy (44),
While much of what you say is valid for most of us, it’s far from a “sure thing”. When you talk about “empirical evidence” that we’re “happier” you’re talking about statistics. So while, relatively speaking and by certain measures, we are “happier”, not everyone who is “frum” is guaranteed this happiness.
Conversely, being in the “secular” world does not guarantee “unhappiness”. Many in that world lead happy and fulfilled lives. Also, some of the ills you attribute to the secular world exist in ours as some of the pluses of our world exist in theirs.
My point is not to knock being frum, it’s to be wary of painting a picture of guaranteed happiness. Just like Daniel was turned off by false “proofs” others can be turned off by misleading promises.
For those who are searching for something more meaningful, having them experience the best of what our world offers can be the best PR. But we should be careful of condescending toward people who already are happy and fulfilled.
Daniel, may I respectfully suggest that the reason you needed to write in to BT today was because the muslim guy told you he could prove the koran? Your pintele yid will be inside you wherever you live, and will draw you toward Jews and away from things non-Jewish, try as you might with all your strength to go in the opposite direction.
Many, many Jews who had “great lives” slowly woke up on their own and realized that their lives were not so great, lacking substance and meaning. There comes a point where most people feel this, and either they’ll choose to ignore it (but it’ll keep nagging them), or they’ll search at their own pace. The spark of a Jewish neshama will lead them to something greater than their “great lives”…it happens and it’s real.
I just submitted a post about this. Not all “proofs” hit people, but everyone has a spark. And it never leaves you. Don’t ignore it. G-d cares about you, and is talking to you.
To Daniel #43: What is the secular world offering you that is so much better?
Jews who observe the Torah sincerely believe they are living more fulfilled, much happier lives than those who do not. There is even empirical evidence that we are happier.
Observant Jews have Shabbos. We don’t have to race around nonstop like the Energizer bunny. For 26 hours a week, we shut off the iPhone and the BlackBerry and the Droid and the text messages and the emails. We stop the world and get off. You, Daniel, keep on running 24/7/365 without a rest. That’s dangerous for the body and destructive to the soul.
The secular world values people only by the size of their bank accounts. Here in the frum world, a wealthy businessman will stand up when a noted Rabbi (who may be living on Social Security checks) enters the room. It’s not all about how rich somebody is. There are some courageous people whom money can’t buy.
In the secular world, your children are fair game for any thrill that comes along, whether it be drinking to the level of alcohol poisoning, or addiction to the newest and deadliest designer drug. No one gives a hoot for anyone else. In the frum world, kids are taught from a young age to develop middos, good character traits. Yes, it is not a perfect system, but in the main we frum Jews try to look out each for the other.
The secular world has completely twisted around how men and women relate to each other, without caring how a lack of values destroys people’s lives every day. The long-lasting satisfaction from being a good marriage, the benefits to both genders from commitment and monogamy: this is something real and scientifically proven.
Should Jewish women just sit back and accept that Jewish men are going to marry non-Jewish women? Are we not allowed to fight the sneering stereotypes of narcissistic Jewish princesses and overbearing Jewish mothers? What about the beauty of creating a Jewish home, where Tatty comes home from shul and makes Kiddush on a Friday night? Or the loveliness of a Passover Seder with the youngest children getting involved in asking the Four Questions and stealing the Afikoman? Should we Jewish women give up the precious job given to us, of building Jewish homes, raising Jewish generations?
Do we partner with Hitler in making sure that Judaism, and the Jewish people, are destroyed in two generations?
Fight what Hitler stood for and wanted to accomplish. Hitler wanted to destroy Yiddishkeit forever. Sitting back and letting Jews walk away from Judaism, without a fight, is like letting Jews be murdered without a fight.
During those five years when you were a religious Jew, did you enjoy any of it? Did you take part in a Pesach seder, sit in a Sukkah, enjoy a Shabbos, listen to good lectures? Did you eat delicious meals, meet intelligent people, join stimulating discussions, drink great Kosher wines? Can you really say those five years of your life were completely wasted?
I’m sorry that the Kiruv group showed you twisted proofs and inaccurate evidence. Did they not also show you satisfied Orthodox Jews with sweet children and devoted spouses? Did you see loving stable homes held together by common goals?
I hope, Daniel, that one day you will decide to come back, again….for all the right reasons.
I’ve been through all that. Was secular, became religious and then left everything 5 years ago…
It all started when someone showed “evidence”. I was hooked on it and wanted to learn more. 5 years after I discovered that those “evidence” were not evidence at all, but just twisted words and facts. A kiruv organisation took advantage of my insecurities and if I’d been more mature, I’d have rejected it. I lost 5 years of my teen time, that can never be restored. Now I live a good life without it.
Today a muslim guy (I live in Europe) came to me and told me that he could prove that the Koran was from God.
There exists no evidence for any religion only insecure souls who can be manipulated. Noone knows for sure that his religion is the right one.
If Jews have a great life without Yiddischkeit and with marrying a non-jew – let them enjoy their lifes.
I’m not sure what the back and forth with Elm is all about. While I’m sure she is a nice person, it is apparent that her husband has rejected Torah Judaism,and has clearly expressed it by marrying a gentile and no one here has any intention of converting. While it may seem like closed mindedness on our part, an intermarriage “ceremony” is roughly equivalent to a Torah burning “ceremony” (chas v’shalom) to many of us (notice, I didn’t say all).
Judy,
To be honest, I wish he was, he’s really the only qualified person to teach our children about it. I can read up (and have) and teach them about it as an ‘academic’, but I can’t teach them about what living like a Jewish person means, because I’ve never done it. We also struggle with what “kind” of Judaism to teach our children– we can teach them strict Reform Judaism which accepts our children as Jews if they want to be, we can teach them the whole spectrum the way we will teach them about Islam, i.e. there are some people who think it means A there are some people who think it means C there are some people who think it means Q.
Our knee-jerk reaction was just to avoid the Orthodox perspective all together, because we don’t want our children to believe that anyone of their fathers religion would reject the marriage of their parents, but they will have an Orthodox Uncle and Aunt, so that may not be an option either.
To clarify though, I’m not interested in observing Judaism for myself, I’m interested in our children having a strong grounding in their roots and understanding the religion their father was raised in. To me, understanding something means REALLY understanding, which is why I’m willing to have lunch with the lions so to speak.
To Elin #37: Hi, Elin, pleased to hear from you again! You are one courageous lady. Anyone can preach to the choir: you’re the only one I know willing to join a bunch of hungry lions for dinner.
Well Elin, now that you’re back on board, can we work on getting your husband as interested in observing Judaism as you are?
You should read the prior comments from our frequent contributor and university sciences professor, Charlie Hall. I believe that his non-Jewish wife first sparked his interest in Judaism, leading them both into becoming committed observant Jews.
Hi Administrator,
I definitely don’t want to replay the conversation– I just wanted to show support for Tuvia’s point. Feel free to remove any element of my post you considered ‘replaying’
Elm, it’s not surprising and perfectly understandable that you or your fiance found the attitudes disgusting. We were saying that you shouldn’t get married unless you convert to Judaism and we can understand how that is offensive.
Although we’ve previously thanked you for participating and giving us a glimpse of the thinking of the non-Jewish spouse, we don’t want to replay the discussion at this point.
If you or your husband are interested in a dialog, please email your points of disgust to us at beyondbt@gmail.com and we’ll try to address them.
I’m going to visit again, because Judy mentioned my posts ages ago, and give the view from the soon-to-be-intermarried.
Tuvia, you are absolutely right. Intermarried couples reject religions that reject them (us). You are also right that Judaism tends to be privileged in intermarriages (anyone with a television can learn the basic story of Christmas, it takes a little more time and effort to teach Simcha Torah and Purim). I did, eventually, show my fiance the thread I contributed to. He was disgusted with the attitudes he read. It was not a good move towards making him think that Judaism should be part of our children’s lives, but I’m quite serious about it because it is part of their history.
And Judy is right that Shiksa is a fairly offensive thing to call us :) thanks for switching terms!
I don’t know anythng about swinging singles (thankfully), but even controlling for divorce, if the study did, then you’re right…of course there would still be a difference. This is because there is a built in system and cycle of separation. Even though it’s for other halachic reasons, it’s still good for other reasons, because otherwise the pair would get tired of one another after a while.This freshening of the relationship exists only by us, yes?
Ross,
You commented above the reason that Orthodox men over 50 have more intimacy is because they don’t get divorced. I’m pretty certain that this is not correct. IE, controlling for divorce will still yield a result of more intimacy for Orthodox men. But even if you are correct, or what relevance is that? Sof sof, we have a valid argument, that at least in this regard, Orthodox lead to a more pleasurable life.
Also, if the truth is like you are suggesting, that frum men have more intimacy because they are married, that is already very telling. There is a mis-perception of the Orthodox a prudish. But we see that frum men are more active then swinging singles.
My biggest problem is with ex post facto declarations that certain converts were never really Jewish to begin with. This causes a nightmare for descendants that could go on literally for decades. Imagine if a 95-year-old great-great-grandmother who converted seventy years ago was suddenly found riding around in a motorized wheelchair on Shabbos and eating questionable food at her nursing home. Does the Bet Din then have the right ex post facto to invalidate her conversion and say that her children and daughters’ children are not Jewish?
The rabbonim and hahamim and batei din should at least all agree on the principle of barring any ex post facto rescission. In other words, once a valid conversion to Judaism is performed it is never revoked, and the convert is Jewish al pi halacha no matter what happens later on in life. I believe that this was the position of the Rambam, that converts are now Jews and any subsequent behavior change does not invalidate the conversion.
Judy,
The standard doesn’t have to be “gold”, it just has to be a standard. If certain “groups” won’t accept the standard then that will be their issue. They can make different “standards” for entry into their group.
We’re not just talking about citizenship. The foreign working are not an issue. We have plenty of citizens who don’t need or want to be Jewish. But if a few stay and want to convert then they should be welcomed to. The standard obviously would be higher as they are not “Zera Yisrael”.
Masorti and Reform are barely a blip on the screen here. Actually, if anything, making conversion standards too strict will create inroads for those movements. Yet another reason to be inclusive.
To Menachem #29: I understand that religious Sephardim are frustrated by seeing the control of religious affairs tightly in the hands of the Lithuanian rabbonim. But whose standards of conversion are going to be the gold standard?
I think there is also going to be a problem involving the 300,000 non-Jewish foreign workers in Israel, particularly those from the Philippines. Eventually, those foreign workers have children who are born in Israel, speak Ivrit fluently, graduate from Israeli schools, and serve in the IDF. Then there will be a second generation, and a third generation. Can the medina keep denying Israeli citizenship unto the second, third and even fourth generation born in Israel? Then what about the inevitable intermarriages that will take place?
What about Russians in Israel who want to be recognized as “masorati” (Conservative) Jews? In the U.S.A., a number of well-known Conservative synagogues have made an effort to attract Russian Jews. What about those Russians with Jewish fathers and grandfathers who undergo Conservative sanctioned conversions in order to become nominally Jewish just like all the other nonpracticing nonreligious Jews?
It should be mentioned that the approach of Eternal Jewish Family, to seek out and convert spouses of intermarried Jews, was endorsed by many of the leading charedi gedolim. Why this approach was acceptable, and the approach of the IDF or the official Israeli rabbinate is not, is not clear to me.
Judy,
You’re missing the point. Nobody is talking about accepting non-halachic Jews as Jews. What is happening, is that we no longer automatically “tear kriya” and completely disown intermarried Jews. Rather than just waiting and hoping that the non-Jewish spouse will “seek out qualified rabbanim” more and more, people are taking a “kiruv” approach in the hopes that the non-Jewish, or non-halachically Jewish spouse will undergo a proper conversion.
The criteria for a halachic conversion are not cast in stone. There are a wide range of legitimate opinions on the minimum threshold necessary to bring someone into the “fold”.
Here in Israel there are an estimated 300,000 Russians who were allowed to become citizens under the law of return because their father or grandfather was Jewish. While not halachic Jews, they do have a status of “Zera Yisrael”. Further many of them have cast their lot with the Jewish nation by joining, fighting and sometimes dying to protect our people. The criteria for their conversions are also unique. Rav Amsalem has written sefer on the topic and the active outreach approach to them is supported by the chief Rabbanit and many major poskim.
Religion in Israel is complicated because it is intertwined with politics. Of late this has allowed a relative small minority of clergy with very strict interpretations of everything to seize control of some of the religious apparatus in the country. This also has a trickle down effect to the diaspora. People across the religious and non-religious spectrum are becoming increasingly dissatisfied with this situation and there is much hope that change will come through people like Rav Amsalem and his new party.
Regardless it’s time for world Jewery to stop kow-towing to a small minority of Jews for fear of “splitting the Jewish” people. These people are free to fence themselves off in a ghetto but do we really want to continue to lose millions of Jews for fear of offending them?
“There are no synagogues left in the South Bronx (a community in New York City), but in the 1930s there were over two hundred synagogues serving more than three hundred thousand Jews.”
http://www.bronxsynagogues.org documents these. Much of this information exists because the federal government in the 1930s sponsored a “make-work” project to document every house of worship in the United States. Not all the synagogues were Orthodox, but there were more Orthodox synagogues there than any other. In 1948 there were more Jews in the Bronx than in Eretz Yisrael. Read and cry. All the new vibrant growing Jewish communities in America combined do not equal the numbers of this once-thriving community.
Seriously, are you guys out to destroy the Jewish people???
The whole “Who Is A Jew” issue threatened at one point to either crush all diaspora support for Medinat Yisrael, or to reject the Torah by defining as Jews anyone with one Jewish grandparent.
Are we going to wind up with two disparate groups of Jews, each of which never marries anyone from the other group, due to the conversion issue? That’s even not considering the massive problems arising from improper Gittin, second marriages, and possible mamzeirus.
It is bad enough that the father’s last name, usually recognizably Jewish, is the last name of the children of these intermarriages. Then you have Reform Judaism which proudly upholds the doctrine of patrilineal descent. The child of intermarriage goes to Hebrew school, goes through a confirmation ceremony and even gets his or her own silk tallit. So why shouldn’t that child believe he/she is totally Jewish, not zero percent, not fifty percent, but one hundred percent?
So you have the zealous, uplifted non-Jewish wife with stars in her eyes, yes, she’s going to have a wonderful marriage with this Jewish man, she’ll even convert to his religion and raise her children as Jews. So what happens if Mr. Right turns out to be a bum? When Mrs. Right gets a divorce and chucks the Jewish religion out of her life along with the Jewish ex-husband? Now what do we call her children?
I am not a Poseik and I cannot even begin to answer any of these questions, which I am sure are the biggest headaches for the Poskim in Eretz Yisroel and Chutz La’Aretz.
I do believe that the best solution is to continue to encourage Jewish men to “marry in” and not date non-Jewish women. What happens when a non-Jewish wife insists on a conversion the other way? Insists on raising the children as non-Jews (which they are)? What happens to the parents of the Jewish husband, do they then have to accept that they have no Jewish grandchildren?
I refer to this as “the tragedy of Jewish demographics.” Zero population growth means two children, four grandchildren, eight great-grandchildren. That’s just to hold your own, so to speak. But then I thought about the assimilated Jewish families I knew, the assimilated Jewish kids I grew up with. They all were from families of two Jewish kids. But none of their families have four Jewish grandchildren!!
In the B. family, a girl and a boy; the girl married and had one child, the boy never married: one Jewish grandchild, a deficit of three (from the goal of four Jewish grandchildren). In the T. family, a girl and a boy; the girl never married, the boy married a non-Jewish woman who never converted and had two children: zero Jewish grandchildren (a deficit of four). In the S. family, two girls; one girl married, divorced five years later without children; one girl never married: zero Jewish grandchildren (a deficit of four). In the M. family, two girls, both girls married and had children; one girl had two boys, the other girl had one girl: three Jewish grandchildren (a deficit of one). In the W. family, two boys; one boy never married, the other boy married a non-Jewish woman who never converted and had three children: zero Jewish grandchildren (a deficit of four).
This just went on over and over among all of the Jewish kids I grew up. Nobody’s family had four Jewish grandchildren (which is just what you need to break even). Is it any wonder that the Jewish population of the United States has actually declined from six million to 5.5 million in the past seventy years? That whole Jewish communities in the United States have disappeared?
There are no synagogues left in the South Bronx (a community in New York City), but in the 1930s there were over two hundred synagogues serving more than three hundred thousand Jews. The beautiful old synagogue in Paterson, New Jersey serves just eight Jewish families. There are no longer Jews left in the Brooklyn neighborhood of Brownsville, or in the cities of Camden and Newark, New Jersey.
I fail to see why we should run to create organizations that enable Jewish men to marry non-Jewish women and endanger the future of the Jewish people. Even when the marriage is a fait accompli, let the non-Jewish wives one by one who are sincere in their commitment to Judaism seek out qualified rabbonim for a Kosher conversion and not some meaningless piece of paper.
Yasher Koach Tuvia. This forward-looking attitude toward conversion (and other issues) is a cornerstone of Rabbi Amsalem’s new political party here in Israel, Am Shalem.
Re: Mr. Cohen’s halachic concerns:
Maybe the focus should be on those who are not yet married?
But there is more than one view on the conversion question.
Rambam appears to have a different sense of the validity of conversions and the ease of conversions than some others.
Gedolim of later generations commented on Rambam’s statements, some essentially invalidating his approach, or what seemed to be his approach (based on a simple reading of his words.)
Not critically important to rehash all of this. I am not saying I have some perfect understanding of the topic.
But I know Judaism: there are disagreements, minority views, and halachah that changes as times change.
One possible example of this is the rules about turning Jews in to secular authorities. In light of recent horrors in the frum community, there has been a clear call to recast this idea for our time as we live in a “b’nei medina,†and not Czarist Russia.
Times changed, and the rules on turning in predators are currently being changed to suit our times.
We agree that conversion exists. Now it is up to the orthodox world to deal with the facts on the ground in light of massive intermarriage. And it is not just about doing the convenient thing: as I stated, Judaism is privileged in mixed marriages. And halachically Jewish kids are a source of future committed Jews.
Also, many gentiles marrying Jews are interested in raising the kids with Jewish awareness, and can often relate to the need to convert. I have found that Jewish men are sometimes the impediment. They are OK with their fiancé or wife converting, but not so much with keeping Shabbos and kosher.
Finally, it is a fact that two Jews marrying does not any longer mean the kids get a Jewish education or feel that Judaism matters.
I close with an anecdote about a friend of mine who is Jewish (his father left orthodoxy as a young man and went on to become a tenured professor at an Ivy League school.)
My friend has Jewish parents who did not care at all about his Jewish education. He did not either.
He married a Jewish woman who was a bit more traditional, and (thank G-d) they have two sons.
He said for years in seriousness that he was in a “mixed marriage.†His wife wanted to the kids to get some Jewish education, he thought it was a crazy idea.
They resolved that the kids get some ethical and heritage education about their Jewish roots – the wife prevailed here somewhat. The husband (my friend) could tolerate ethics and heritage.
Anyway, the point is: two Jews do not make for a Jewish home these days. And going forward? Less and less a guarantee of anything.
Intermarriage is not a tragedy looked at this way. It is an opportunity.
With more and more intermarriage, we have to rethink the strictures in this area: they were right for their time and place, but here in our b’nei medina, Jews are walking away in great numbers. Respond (halachically) to the facts on the ground. Dust off the Rambam on this matter and give him another read.
Tuvia
Tuvia (message 21) said:
“Be more accepting and supportive of Orthodox conversion for spouses of Jews marrying out.â€
____________________________________________
If this is truly a good idea, then why did Ezra HaSofer not do it when he had the chance?
In the Biblical Book of Ezra, chapter 10, Ezra was the undisputed leader of all Jews in his time. He could have converted the Gentile wives of Jewish men; instead, he eliminated them from Israel. Ezra is never criticized for this by any prophet or classic Torah book.
Also consider these:
Teshuvot Achiezer, Chelek 3 of 4, Siman 28:
No kosher Beth Din should deal with this (the conversion of intermarried couples).
CHRONOLOGY: Rabbi Chaim Ozer Grodzinski, born 1863, died 9 August 1940.
Igros Moshe, comment on Eben HaEzer 1:27:
This whole issue of conversion of intermarried couples is personally totally distasteful even in isolated cases.
Judy,
My rav started to work with EJF, but he realized early on that he opposed their attempts to “reach out” to possible converts. He is willing to work with prospective converts who contact him and in fact over forty years as a rabbi has sponsored eight successful converts. But he feels very strongly that soliciting converts is not something Jews should do.
Regarding Catskills hotels, I personally know a woman who was part of the entertainment (a singer) at one of those hotels for several years. She was so impressed with Judaism that she eventually had an Orthodox conversion.
Got it: Sorry about the shiksa.
But my point here in NYC is this: people who are Jewish are both ignoring Judaism and marrying out. I do meet couples (particularly at Chabad and some other kiruv type places) who are mixed and the gentile is interested in Judaism.
Let’s be frank: they may not keep all the mitzvoth for long. They may even fool around with a Christmas tree here or there. But they will probably do something in terms of Jewish education for their halachically Jewish kids.
This is not hypothetical: I see this with my own eyes all the time — Judaism is preferred by the mixed family (especially when the kids are young and ethical and communal experiences are parental priorities). Judaism is privileged by them over other religions.
Use this information to leverage the minting of more Jews (goodness knows the kids may even grow up to be BTs!!!)
Also, is it my imagination, or does Judaism stress growth of observance over time? We ask too much to tell a convert to keep all the mitzvohs from day one from here on out or we will retroactively return you to gentile status. We are a people who encourage growth in mitzvoth observance – why is the ger supposed to be a superman or a superwoman who gets it all and must keep it all from day one?
If I believed that I could divine Hashem’s will, I would say he is dropping some hints to us to change our conversion mentality.
Or just complain forever about the tragedy of intermarriage (a reflexive comment that is a turn off to Jews in mixed marriages, how about the tragedy of them not converting? Could pique their interest).
The choice is ours (Hashem said so, remember? The Torah is in our hands.)
Respectfully,
Tuvia
PS: Plenty of men love Jewish women. Not all of these men are Jewish though (I personally know several Jewish women with gentile husbands.)
To Tuvia #21:
Conversion has been a tremendously rocky subject over the past few years, what with the dissension roiling Orthodoxy in Israel over military conversions, accepting local or foreign conversions, and the troubling possibility of many years later declaring a conversion ex post facto invalid.
I don’t know if you caught all the postings from Elin, a non-Jewish woman engaged to be married to a Jew, on the article How Can We Avoid Alienating Our Families and Breaching Our Values? Elin was far more interested in teaching Judaism to the future kids of their prospective intermarriage than her presumably turned-off-Judaism husband to be, but she also intended to have a tree for Xmas along with the Chanukah menorah.
It appears from earlier articles on this website that at least one regular contributor became a BT because his non-Jewish wife became interested in Judaism and brought her apathetic spouse along with her to find out more.
This seems to be exactly what that now-defunct organization Eternal Jewish Family was talking about before it ended in scandal and accusations: reach out and convert the non-Jewish partner in an intermarriage. The big problem is that Reform and Conservative Judaism got that idea first, and what if the non-Jewish spouse does not continue keeping mitzvot, what happens to the conversion? What happens to the kids if the marriage falls apart and the non-Jewish wife stops living a Torah life?
Last, I would recommend not using the word “shiksa” to describe a non-Jewish woman. When I used it rather innocently in a comment (not using the phrase in a derogatory sense) I was flamed down. Brickbatted. Told to stop.
It is to be hoped that with the demise of the Catskills hotels also comes the demise of the negative stereotypes about Jewish girls, Jewish women and Jewish mothers, which led so many men to marry “out.”
Reading the above, if you are dealing with marrying and family minded individuals – the strengthening of family argument stands out.
The other interesting one is the one for those of us who can’t be sure of the accuracy of masorah. Become frum and become a link in the chain of masorah. Don’t judge the masorah, join it. It has a strength to it. Very interesting.
Proofs are bad, verging on a disaster. They gotta go! The above stuff is better.
One more quick point:
Be more accepting and supportive of orthodox conversion for spouses of Jews marrying out. Make it possible. People are voting with their engagement rings: they marry who they want. Doesn’t mean bringing Judaism in is so weird.
I have met many couples where the shiksa is encouraging of raising Jewish children (the gentile is spearheading this Jewish home thing!! The guys don’t really care.) Let’s help them!
I tend to agree with Menachem that accentuating the positives and SOG that people tend to respond to what moves them the most are the most effective means of initiating the process of Kiruv.
Chaya Rivka said it all. It depends entirely on whom you are talking with — age, origin, background, worldview…
I think we still only have 2 options, Torah Judaism leads to happiness or Torah Judaism is true. We could classify the community benefits as increasing happiness through the emotional pleasure resulting from the social bonds with others.
Joshua points out that there are many people who are achieving happiness without Torah Judaism.
Menachem and SOG point out in the Torah is truth realm there are pitfalls in that missteps in presentation can even lead a person further away from the truth of Torah.
It’s kind of a frustrating situation and perhaps that’s why much of Kiruv today takes the Torah is Fun approach which focuses on creating positive, fun events centered around Torah themes.
Personally I think there is still much work that can be done in the happiness and truth realms.
The problem I see with many of these approaches is that a sincere Conservative or Reform Jew would argue that ideally their community provides the same things for them. I am sure that most C/R Jews believe their community ought to lead to communal support, helping achieve strong marriage, proper values for their children etc.
I am also confident that they believe their standards for Torah observance lead to spiritual benefits.
Thus unless the person is actively searching because they find themselves lacking in one of the above areas, I am not sure any of the above are successful statements.
“Obviously it depends on the audience, e.g. whether they are more spiritual, rational, searching, not searching, etc.”
That’s an important element.
Also, the question of “the benefits of Torah Observance” is separate from kiruv; the “conventional wisdom” applicable in a kiruv situation does not apply to parents/teachers relating to their children. In such sitautions, it’s also relevant what the child/talmid senses about how fulfilled their parent/rebbe is, as opposed to an explicit conversation.
While this may not apply in many kiruv situations, it may be possible for a knowledgeable insider to challenge both the truth and the happiness argument. Regarding the latter, for example, R. Benzion Shaffier based his recent book on the fact that many frum people are not happy! Of course, his book is a response to that, but that phenomenon, in of itself, would make an interesting, stimulating and an important conversation, even between a non-observant person and a observant one/ kiruv professional.
As far as the truth discussion, and somewhat tangential, the blogger Avakesh recently wrote that there are people who believe that kiruv presentations can be challenged. If this is true(I am far from an expert to get involved in specifics), I would frame it that there are people with different intellectual needs(“chanoch l’naar al pi darko”, as R. Slifkin has noted), and that kiruv presentations designed to whet a non-frum person’s appetite to learn more Torah, will not be effective in other FFB situations, ie, when dealing with questions and/or doubts possibly accumulated over a lifetime. People confident in their beliefs certainly should express that confidence in intellectual terms to the non-frum, but another type of conversation, perhaps individualized and ongoing, is needed for some of those who are who already observant and familiar with sources and who are in interested in keeping an open and positive mind towards growth in emunah.
Sorry…that’s a typo. It seems I misread the word “disagree” in your question…I thought it said “agree”. So change #2 to No, and give me half credit.
“I would actually stay away from the whole “truth†thing”, said ML above.
And the happiness thing. Too subjective. And the ‘hurt spiritually’ thing–you can’t prove that.
Just give the specifics. In ML’s list, I would start with solid families…something which most people desire, yet sorely lacking today.
Obviously it depends on the audience, e.g. whether they are more spiritual, rational, searching, not searching, etc.
Generically, I would go with Albany Jew’s basic angle and discuss the tangible benefits of living as part of an orthodox community.
Things such as:
Communal support
Strong marriages
Solid families
Chessed
Quality time away from the rat race
Shared heritage
I would actually stay away from the whole “truth” thing. It’s a dangerous game to play and a misstep can really turn someone off.
We BELIEVE it’s true because we’ve re-connected to a mesorah, a tradition, that links us back to the beginning. I think that connection has to come with time and learning.
Sorry to burst your bubble AJ re; #4, but there ARE Kosher McDonald’s here in Israel :)
Ross, I’m surprised you don’t think Torah Judaism has the potential to greatly increase happiness and pleasure in the emotional, intellectual and spiritual realms. I’ll grant you that you can make a good case that for physical pleasure it’s more limiting.
“You know what the answer was that they found out? Orthodox Jewish men.”
Because they’re the only ones still married. In the other groups, most everyone got divorced.
Top 10 list: (not necessarily in this order)
1) Most holidays!
2) Kiddishes!
3) Forced to take 24 hours off every week (what looks like restrictions is the greatest freedom of all and this can be rationally explained in this 24/7 world)
4) You can never eat at McDonalds again! (believe me this is a benefit for those addicted)
5) Kids get something besides the garbage thrown at them in modern society.
6) Automatic community which often (unfortunately not always) looks out for each other
7) Emes!
8) Guideline for life!
9) Beyond Bt!
10) and with a nod to Judy, it’s like a honeymoon every month!
Everyone is going to either throw bricks at me for this comment, or laugh their heads off.
The notorious sociological researchers did a methodologically sound survey. They wanted to find out the answer to this question: What specific group of American men past the age of 50 gets the most, um, intimacy, and the most regularly?
You know what the answer was that they found out? Orthodox Jewish men.
Jew who commit sins like: eating non-kosher foods, speaking Lashon Hara, speaking Nibul Peh, and failing to observe Shabbat are causing themselves very great harm. They should become observant to stop hurting themselves.
MF, I’ll answer.
1. The statement “I think you should be an observant Yid because…” begins AFTER your happiness mission statement above. That’s where the discussion means something. Nice intro, but doesn’t say much about Judaism specifically.
2. Yes
3. No
4. Nope. They check out other teams because they’re more specific. Uninterrupted solitude and meditation, Heaven for believers, eternal rewards, UNCONDITIONAL PEER ACCEPTANCE, aaahhh…what could be better?
Know your audience. It depends on really knowing and empathizing with who they are (and where they are “at”), and what their relationship is with you.
Ross, what would you say if theoretically the person was open to a discussion?
Do you disagree with the statement that Torah can bring you more happiness and pleasure?
Just because others make the same claim, does that make it not true in regards to Judaism?
Perhaps people are more likely to investigate other “religions” because they make the claim and we don’t?
The proper change might be gradual, but in the perception of one hearing the pitch it might sound radical.
“The happiness discussion might start like this:
Happiness and pleasure can be found in the physical, emotional, intellectual and spiritual realms. Torah Judaism provides many more avenues to achieve these pleasures and makes your life happier, more self-actualizing and more meaningful.”
Really? The next salesman will come along and say the same thing, but switch the words “Torah Judaism” to the name of his cult.
I’ve heard it before. I have relatives who are J witnesses who used the same pitch. And any born-again will stick in his organizational name (while staring into your eyes, and adding with a sinister whisper, Come…join us!”)
The ninth day adventists temple of doomsday do the same thing.
So, sit back in your easy chair, chew that cigar, and start sounding like a real ad agency: What we need is a real grabber, something people can believe in!
I though that was your original question.
When done properly, the change is not radical but gradual.
Hopefully even some of us are still experiencing those gradual changes to a higher level of awareness and service to Hashem.
The conventional wisdom is accurately based, because people tend to look at an open pitch for a radical lifestyle change, especially if the change looks restrictive, as a threat. If you know well enough that a certain person will not react that way, it’s possible to open up a conversation.
But what should that opening be? Rather than some flat declaration, it could be a reflection on some real life benefit you have experienced lately through Torah.
I think the two main areas are truth and happiness.
The truth discussion might start like this:
Although I can’t prove through conventional scientific methods that there is a G-d who gave the Torah, I think that the different areas of evidence lead towards that conclusion. You can determine truth even without absolute proof and perhaps it would make sense to examine the evidence.
The happiness discussion might start like this:
Happiness and pleasure can be found in the physical, emotional, intellectual and spiritual realms. Torah Judaism provides many more avenues to achieve these pleasures and makes your life happier, more self-actualizing and more meaningful.