We are extremely grateful to Hashem for the success of this project. Together we have created a virtual community of thousands of Jews worldwide sharing our thoughts, ideas and chizuk.
We would like to move to the next stage and create more offline activies to meet, share and strengthen one another. Frequent commentor Chana recently suggested a Shabbaton on Shabbos Nachamu, August 5th, which sounds like a great idea. We would probably hold it in Kew Gardens Hills, since we know a lot of people here who could provide sleeping accomodations. The event is open to BTs, FFBs and OnTheWays, but the program will be primarly geared toward BT issues.
We would have communal meals and hopefully a rocking Melave Malka if we can get some of the musicians in the group here. We figure the cost for the meals would be between $75 – $90 per person and about $50 – $70 for children under 16.
Updated:
We would have Friday meals at the host houses, with a communal Shabbos lunch and we’re working on low cost ideas for Shalosh Seudos and possibly a Melave Malka. We’re trying to get the cost for the meals to between $20 – $30 per person and about $16 – $24 for children under 16.
Please leave a comment or send us an email at beyondbt@gmail.com, if you would be interested and let us know how many people would be in your party.
This year in Queens
perhaps next year at my farm in VT (if we’re not worthy of bringing moshiach before then
gut shabbos
shmuel (busying tuning up the telecaster for next week’s free farbrengen with the freliche farmer in Freeborn MN
I guess it might be a bit much to organize, but wouldn’t it be nice to do this in the country? I know every Jew in the city tries to get there for Shabbos Nachamu, but still . . .
There are various compromises between full mixed and full separate seating. ONe is to have some tables separate, and some tables mixed (seen at my cousin’s wedding in Chicago). Another is to have tables that are overall mixed, but nobody is sitting next to someone of the opposite sex to whom they are not related, e.g.
wife1-2kids-husband1-singleguy1-singleguy2-husband2-wife2-singlegal-wife3
that’s a 10-person mixed table without actual contact between unrelated mixed sex.
Seen in Chabad places, where you cater to BTs while being really separate.
I wonder….is there a difference in the nature of the requested compromise between a lenient minhag giving way to a more stringent minhag and vice versa.
I’m no expert, but I’m under the impression that contrary to contemporary practice, the lenient one is the one that should be done. There are serious issues of ba’al tosif in some instances.
I also disagree with Tzvi N – I don’t find that having serious intellectual conversation, even of the more emotional type that people here sometimes have, somehow crosses a line of tznius. That people don’t talk about the same things in person is not (IMO) because of tznius but a host of other reasons, such as rarely coming across like-minded people [even those who disagree], discomfort in discussions, etc. At our Shabbos table, bH we *do* have these conversations on a regular basis – but it depends very much on the crowd that is here. Some crowds simply would not be interested, others uncomfortable, etc.
Wow! I certainly didn’t expect my comment to lead off in these directions! But that’s the nature of a comment thread…
I was actually not thinking about mixed vs. separate seating (but thanks for the advice anyway, JT!). What I really meant by my original comment is most closely reflected in Chana’s comment #14, namely that:
our real life encounters with the opposite gender would never be so casual as it can easily become in a forum such as this one.
We have in fact been having these casual, someone intimate and deep conversations in a semi-anonymous virtual setting. Chana likened it to a chat room, which is not far from the mark. Many of us would never have these kinds of conversations in person with a member of the opposite sex. Well, what happens when/if we meet?
For example, I have no idea who Chana is, and I assume she does not know who I am. For all I know we have met, but I’m sure we haven’t had these kinds of conversations in person. If we were to meet at the Shabbaton (where the whole purpose is bonding and mutual support), and put the collective conversations we have had together with an actual person, that could lead to situations of emotional bonding which cross the bounds of appropriate tznius.
I think this should be taken into account in planning the Shabbaton. The first step in dealing with such a risk is ackowledging its existence.
I wonder….is there a difference in the nature of the requested compromise between a lenient minhag giving way to a more stringent minhag and vice versa.
Also, does the Chassidish visitor consider his practice “minhag”?
Actually, Chana, the general rule is that a visitor conforms to the place they are visiting, not the reverse, when it comes to minhag (or halacha). Interestingly, people don’t always follow this today: My FIL pointed out that although wives generally “take on” their husband’s minhagim, in the olden days it actually was whichever one switched cities would take on the minhagim of that city. Usually, the wife moved to the husband; but if it was the reverse, the husband’s minhagim changed.
Separately, I fail to see how total separation of the sexes is more “tznius”. A proper understanding of tznius dictates no such thing.
Sephardi Lady: If the community was “hosting” the Chassidish visitor, why wasn’t it more important for purposes of hachnassos orchim to cater to his obvious discomfort with mixed seating? He wasn’t asking the community to give it up for good.
Sorry for the cutoff on my erev Shabbos post. I guess things were too hectic here to attempt a discussion then.
I was about to say, back to Tzvi’s welcome warning about the weakening of appropriate male/female boundaries: Since this has been my first experience with blogs, I have never entered a chatroom, and only IM my immediate family, I am increasingly becoming aware of this issue that Tzvi brought up. I’m guessing that for many frum people, our real life encounters with the opposite gender would never be so casual as it can easily become in a forum such as this one. That’s not to say that anyone would make different comments in person, but perhaps the frequency and depth of the conversations transcend the tznius boundaries that some hold to in person.
Is there any rabbinic guidelines for blogs? In a way this blog is like group therapy, or a support group. Perhaps the Shabbaton can be considered in the same way. It certainly seems that many Rabbaim are in favor of psychotherapeutic procedures. Is there any rabbinic guidelines for tznius boundaries in group therapy where a group of strangers (often coed) will speak intimately with each other about their private issues, while forming bonds essential to the therapeutic process, in the name of strengthening one another and problem-solving?
Tzvi N – firstly I suggest use Monsey Trails as your initial means of transportation you will then be emotionally prepared for concepts such as mixed seating NYC subway systems . (no, origin soo doesnt matter you, can hop on anywhere in Midtown NYC or really quaint towns such as Monsey and New Square ……. they take the sheet myth (without the hole) to a whole new general traveling level. The only issues you may run into r the subsequent unintentional bumping into members of the opposite sex caused by the general obscured viewing/vision of any spatial activity outside the actual seat your sitting in .So aim for the front seats and dont take sides or anything. If you have any questions there is usually an obnoxious fellow or six keeping things structured and obnoxious.They may be hiring summer mechitzah hanging interns if you intend on making a career out of this.there is nothing like on the job training .
Chana – regarding your “idea/notion” of a separate gender blog you should definitely go one step further each current member should just create their own blog if they havent already done so and converse mainly with themselves.when questioning concepts it would probally work to keep changing personalities to keep things interesting as conversing with yourself could get a litttle boring and not everyone has answers for everything you might want to then consult your local rebbitzin dont know or rabbi with mechitza . “family seating ” ????- the stuff u seem to be worried (though I definitely question the validity of your worries) will not get fixed if they do in fact exist in your mind with family seating .Ever hear of family breeding with different head members of the family seating.
SepharidLady – thanks for the insights .I already love and really respect that Rav who insisted on eating with his wife ….What is marriage about anyway ? People are definitley losing sight of the forest these days and becoming overly zealous and modest trees with way too many fences for keeping the whole rest of the Forest world fenced out .
Steve Brizel – thanks for your insights .IMJO Seating does not compromise Tznius.
There are also machmir people who oppose separate seating for Shabbat meals. I know a Rav whose shul was hosting a Chassidish Rebbe visitor that was in town and decided to make a community Shabbat dinner for the occassion.
This visitor insisted on separate seating and the Rav said, absolutely not, on Shabbos one is to eat with his wife and I won’t have it in my shul.
The issue is certainly not clear cut and I’m not really sure there is a minhag to “discard” outside of select communities. The poskim in my community all sit with their wives at communal events, and one posek even went to sit with his wife at a wedding that looked like it might be separate seating. I ended up at their table and it was nice to see how much this posek enjoyed having his wife right by his side.
I’m sorry we can’t make it to this Shabbaton. It is really nice for Ba’alei Teshuva to have a wide array of their own contacts (especially went it comes to networking for shidduchim for their own children). So, all the best to the planners and attendees.
Steve Brizel: Thanks for the insights on the history of the separate seating issue, although I don’t believe the minhag should be discarded just because it’s source was confined since it seems to have attracted many adherents who wish to also be machmir.
Back to Tzvi’s
Chana- a short historical note-separate seating was not always the minhag either in pre war Europe ( especially Lithuania) or the US. The Chasidishe ( especially Hungarian Chasidishe) world seems to always have been makpid in this regard and one can say that this is one of many Chasidishe minhagim that either infiltrated or were accepted by the post war rebuilt Litvishe world as well as in the case of Upshiren, and the events at Meron on Lag BaOmer.One need not be a sociologist to note these changes.
OTOH, one can argue that perhaps singles or relatives who have no understanding of this minhag need not be required to sit in this manner. I do know that R M Willig has a great shiur on this subject and that he presents it as (1) based on minhag hamakom in light of the views of many Gdolei Acharonim and (2) with grounds for leniency for some who would normally sit in a mixed milieu.
If this Shabbaton involved communal meals, obviously one could adopt a separate seating or family seating policy. One could argue that tznius would not be compromised by either position.
Here is one story -from the late 70s. I was working as a waiter at the old Pine View Hotel-a hotel in the Catskills under OU supervisison. One Shabbos, Torah UMesaorah had their national annual convention there. All of the Shabbos meals were 100% mixed. The Motzaie Shabbos melaveh malkeh was presumed to be so as well. However, at the last minute, the powers that be insisted on separate seating. You should have heard all of the famous and not so famous Nashim Tzidkaniyos complaining about this last minute change!
OTOH, we have attended many communal functions on a national and local level that have been graced by the attendance of Gdolim who sat with their spouses, as the entire event was mixed from the smorgasboard thru the dinner. One would be hard pressed to find a compromise in the standards of tznius merely because of the seating.
FWIW, at least one yeshiva in KGH insists on separate seating even for a family seudah ( Bris, Sheva Brachos) that is taking place on Shabbos.Again, one can argue the pros and cons of it, but IMO, I think that the kavanah of the event would leave no negative effect on one’s standards of tznius and might even have a positive effect in allowing for many BTs to network, etc. I seem to recall that the BT Mekavah Malkeh had mixed seating as well, possibly for this reason.
Just an addendum: Would it work to have a BeyondBT blog with separate gender postings (and perhaps a third for “family seating”? Anyway, I would love to hear comments on the separate seating at weddings, performances, shiurim, etc… Have most of us reached a comfort zone with this issue?
Tzvi N: Your question is intriguing (sp?). It is probably understood that the topic of tznius in public behavior and interaction is one of the most drastic changes a BT undergoes. Obviously, individuals in any group of BT’s will be at different levels of practice and even of understanding of tznius requirements. Actually, that’s probably true for many groups of FFB’s as well, unless they are bound by a common hashkafa.
Personally, participating in events where tznius is compromised makes me uncomfortable. This is part of my reasons for avoiding many family gatherings. On the other hand, if the kavanah of the event is L”shem shamayim, for example, to help BT’s in their struggle to remain Torah observant Jews, I don’t think I would be as affected.
This seems like a touchy issue and one that bears exploring. What are your views Tzvi N?
I believe we’ll be around that week (though it’s so far off in the future!). We hope to be in a 2-bedroom by then, as well. The price is a bit high – I’d suggest meals at people’s houses Friday night or Shabbos day as well.
I’m reasonably certain you could get it done for cheaper anyway. E-mail me, I have a thought…
I would be interested if the price could be brought down.
One feature of the online community created by BeyondBT is the ability to have conversations involving people you would not otherwise meet or engage with. This is mostly good. But, as Michoel pointed out in #3 of his Fourteen Reasons Not to Use the Internet, this feature can lead to a weakening of appropriate boundaries of male-female communications.
I am wondering how we can achieve the laudable aims of this get-together while maintaining a healthy regard for tznius in interactions.
Sounds good, but maybe the $$ could come down a bit?
Shayna, don’t know where you’ve been lately (not here?) but hope you can make it because I’d love to meet you! I”H, count us in – I know it’s a visiting day at many of the sleepaway camps, but that’s on Sunday. I think doing it in the summer when many of us have kids away is ideal!
My family and I will be there and I’ll try to bring my kuzu for the melava malka.
I saw Aryeh Leib in shul this morning and his family is coming. He suggested meals at people’s houses on Friday night, which might make sense and would reduce the cost.
Of course, me and my family are coming.