Gil Student points to this article by Rebbetzin Nomi Travis about Ba’alei Teshuvoh Parents in the Ask the Shadchun column from the Yated. Here is the question from the letter writer:
Dear Shadchanit,
I follow your columns and enjoy the fact that you raise issues that others ignore. I hope you will be able to handle another sensitive matter — call it a challenge . . .
My husband and I have been fully observant Torah Jews for over twenty years and we are now on the threshold of marrying off our children who are truly FFBs. The question of yichus comes up and we find ourselves at times very challenged (and hurt). We know that everyone has a right to their own priorities, yet I feel at times like echoing the words of my good friend, “Now, after all these years… l know what you really think of me…” I do not want to condemn others. I would like to be non-judgmental, I think that our community has come a long way, yet not far enough in opening itself up to “newcomers.”
I understand that people like to marry their children off to someone from a matching or parallel background, and that there are many intricate issues involved in these decisions… But I still would hope that we, the veteran baalei Teshuvoh would be accepted in the warm and loving way as we were, when we first expressed an interest in self betterment and took the sometimes treacherous route of chozrim beTeshuvoh. We certainly had great help, love, and support then, which helped us overcome many obstacles. But now, at this point in our lives, we need help again.
Can you open this topic up for discussion in your column?
Thanking you in advance for your interest.
A Mother in Israel
Click here to read Rebbetzin Travis’ response and leave a comment here expressing your views on the subject.
WADR to the administrators, this piece should be linked to the piece about choosing a shadchan.
Well, Mordechai, I certainly cannot defend the indefensible.
There were some good articles in the Hebrew Mishpacha magazine (I don’t know if they were in the English) decrying these problems. Hopefully, if enough sane people get together we can end the madness (where have I heard that before?)
“In short, don’t worry too much about what other people think or say. Families who would not want you, you would not want them either”
That’s what I was trying to say all along!
Regardless of perceived differences or not, I still feel the Ashkenazi world is simply wrong on this issue and agree with Mr. Scher that such things are rare in RZ circles and, in my experience, are unheard of in Sephardi circles.
This idea of wanting to stay away from people who don’t come from optimal backgrounds because of some real or imagined difference such people may have in approach to observant Judaism is a slippery slope in my honest opinion and its this kind of attitude that gets Sephardi girls banned from Beis Yaakov and Sephardi families banned from Kiryat Sefer, since ‘chas v’shalom’, they’re different.
Maybe there’s just something about the Ashkenazi Charedi world that I just don’t quite get in order to see why family background matters so much in shidduchim, school enrollment, or who lives in the neighborhood.
My husband’s Rebbe, who is one of the Gedolah Hador, once told him, “We make our own yichus”. From what I hear (I’m still a few years ago from “the parsha”), the shidduch scene can cause grey hair to erupt on anyone’s head, not just BT families. I don’t agree with all the points made on end the madness, but there are many valid ones, including one brushed upon here in the discussion about tznius at the proposed Shabbaton. When the shidduch world concerns itself about the character of those being proposed, as opposed to plastic table cloths and (exhausted) mothers wearing a robe on Friday night, maybe we’ll overcome some aspects of the alleged singles crisis.
We have a cousin who’s a relatively recent BT. He once asked me, only partly in jest, whether the fact that this side of the family has quite a number of the cousins who are chushiva Yidden would help him in a shidduch. I’m afraid not, we all have to stand on our own merits.
OTOH, I’ve yet to forget meeting some people from a kehilla made up primarily of families from a well known BT Yeshiva. One of the mother’s told me she doesn’t want her children marrying the children of BT’s, or BT’s themselves, so that they will not be “deprived” of having a large, frum mishpacha. That’s sad.
When I’m studying Gemara in a group and the Rabbi says my comment or question is “baalebatish”, I know I didn’t exactly hit a home run. But, despite my deficiencies as a BT “baalebos”, our kids have done well in the yeshiva world and are treated well.
IMO, we have been thru this issue before and the comments of the esteemed Rebbitzen/Shadchan underscore the seeming disonnect between the views of the Gdolim on this issue and the views of many FFBs. Perhaps, that is a rather ironic illustration of why Daas Torah is generally the exact opposite of Daas Baale Batim on this issue.
Mordechai-
>> I’m still not comfortable with the idea that an FFB child, who has gone to the same yeshivot and schools as anyone else, will be seen as somehow markedly different…
Obviously, I am also uncomfortable with such an idea. And I don’t believe my children feel that way, or are seen that way. However, there are differences, and people will factor them in when making a decision.
I have never met anyone religious who didn’t view becoming a baal teshuvah as praiseworthy. However, it’s different, isn’t it? Is it posssible to imagine that our children aren’t affected at all by the differences?
Ora-
>>I can see how social compatibility could bias the parents’ decision, even subconciously, but why do you say that “this factor needs to be given some weight?â€
Some weight, but not much. Being a baal teshuvah, I would not consider it so important, but I can sympathize with the point of view that considers it more important. Although one may at times encounter snobbery or racism, as in any society, I think the frum velt’s reasoning is almost universally based on social compatibility and looking for similar mentalities and hashkafah. And if they find this in a baal teshuvah’s child, they’ll pursue it.
As I mentioned, I have seen baalei teshuvah friends of mine make shidduchim with very shtark Yeshivishe Israeli families. If it’s good for my child, I would encourage it, although I might feel uncomfortable at times. My point was that I would lechatchila look for a similar background for my children’s shidduchim, because of the way I’d feel and the way my child presumably may feel being “outclassed†all the time. This might cause extra pressure in a marriage that doesn’t need to be there.
Now, if we were all 100% mature and viewed ourselves as tzelem Elokim, created in the image of G-d, at all times, these problems would not exist, but I’m trying to be real with myself. Hopefully, my children will grow beyond this and won’t feel “pressured” or “outclassed.” Actually, I think they have and I’m sure they’ll be privileged to wonderful shidduchim.
>> What I don’t get is, why would anyone choose to join a community that won’t fully accept them?
You answered this question with your next question: Are there advantages to these communities that outweigh the decades of slight-but-permanent “outsider†status? Yes, and that’s why we joined it. To me, the advantage is being part of a community that considers the ratzon Hashem, G-d’s will, as their number one priority in life. Do such communities exist elsewhere and in other formats? I’m sure they do, but this is what Hashem led us to in our development, and we cherish the advantages while seeking to improve the problems.
David S: I can see how social compatibility could bias the parents’ decision, even subconciously, but why do you say that “this factor needs to be given some weight?” Matchmaking is between the kids, not their families. I’ve seen many cross-cultural shidduchim work wonderfully here, all the more so it should be possible to make successful shidduchim between two people from the same culture, regardless of their parents. In the end, how much time do you really spend with your in-laws? I doubt it’s enough to justify making the shidduch process about in-law compatibility.
I really don’t understand this whole “conformity/acceptance” issue at all (even after reading several of the older blogs here). In my community, chozrim b’tshuva and converts are absolutely welcome, and not treated differently from the “natives.” (Of course, it helps that there are enough different languages and cultures floating around that it’s pretty much impossible to tell who’s who among the FFBs and BTs.) What I don’t get is, why would anyone choose to join a community that won’t fully accept them? Do people feel some inner need to be part of davka the circles where this is a problem? Are there advantages to these communities that outweigh the decades of slight-but-permanent “outsider” status? Or do people just not mind so much, and see the anti-BT bias as a mild annoyance but not a serious issue? I’m genuinely curious, any answers will be appreciated.
““In short, don’t worry too much about what other people think or say. Families who would not want you, you would not want them either . . .â€
This line from the Rebbitzen is oh so true.”
I agree. One hears this a lot in shidduchim “I’d like to go to college, but I’m afraid it’s bad for shidduchim” and so on. There’s a bit of truth in these attitudes, in that for shidduchim to happen, someone has to recommend the shidduch, and the person doing the recommending may not “See” a college grad with a learning guy, or a FFB child of BT with a child of FFB. But most of the time, I think these attitudes that seem so jarring to one side but make sense to the other side just serve to weed out people who aren’t suitable anyway.
David;
I’m still not comfortable with the idea that an FFB child, who has gone to the same yeshivot and schools as anyone else, will be seen as somehow markedly different because his parents became religious 20 or 30 years ago and doesn’t have 96 cousins/frum relatives. To me at least, that’s bizarre. A secular equivalent would be like saying that someone who has foreign born parents is an unsutible match for a person who comes from a family where both parents are native born. Most people would find that ridiculous given that regardless of where the parents come from, the kids are integrated into the cultural norm, regardless of any extra perspectives they may carry by being raised in a household with ‘different’ parents.
Ironically the ‘exposure’ to non-frum relatives is also why some Charedi schools in Israel refuse to let Sephardim/Mizrachim in. There’s a point where things are taken a little too far in order to ‘protect’ the throughbreds.
“In short, don’t worry too much about what other people think or say. Families who would not want you, you would not want them either . . .”
This line from the Rebbitzen is oh so true.
In shidduchim, there are far too many people who are out chasing what they can’t “afford to buy.” Being that it is a tough market, that is a terrible mistake to make and it is much better to spend one’s efforts making contact with those that are accepting.
>>Something is very odd here. … but the FFB children of BT’s apparently have a strike against them too!?
I wouldn’t describe it as a strike against them, but as a natural reflection of the fact that in frum shidduchim it is a match between the families in the initial stages.
In our experience as baalei teshuvah, usually, we went out on dates with little or no parental influence. We may have discussed things with Rabbis or friends, but the decision was all up to us.
Now, as frum parents, at least in many social systems, such as the chareidi Israeli system I’m familiar with, the parents initially check things out and make the investigations, carefully trying to keep a balanced picture, avoid lashon hara, and give over the imformation to our children in a balanced way that helps them in the decision making process. It’s an awesome responsibility and pretty scary.
Naturally, parents are going to be attracted to those families they feel most comfortable with. Can you imagine sitting at a simcha with a yichus-dik family, and their 96 cousins, aunts and uncles, while you and your wife and kids are alone with Uncle Joe and his wife, who flew in from chutz l’aretz?
I imagine the same scenerio is relevant in the Diaspora, with variations.
Socially, I think things are less compatible between these families, and this factor needs to be given some weight.
Also, children of baalei teshuvah may often be different; they’ve been exposed to non-frum relatives and have different attitudes about the non-frum world. They may have a different mentality than others even though they went to the same schools and grew up in the same neighborhood, perhaps more open, more willing to challenge accepted norms, more independence.
I wouldn’t call it a strike against us, because I consider these differences to be maalos – advantages – but they may cause less compatibility.
What is Sinaas Chinam? The Netziv – Rabbi Naftoli Zvi Yehuda Berlin (1817-1893, Rosh Yeshiva, Volozhiner Yeshiva 1854-1892), writes in his introduction to Sefer Bereishis, the following: “Even though in Bayis Sheini (second Temple) they were Torah scholars and did Chesed, nevertheless, they would hate those who had a different approach to serving Hashem then they did.â€
Nowaday, and even more in israel , it is very hard to be accepted if you are a little different, we still suffer from the same sin of the second Bais hamikdash. The person who is going to accept your child with his Yichus is someone who has Ahava , who will build a Bayis neeman , who will build the Bais Hamikdash. Just trust in Hashem and surch for the one who has Ahavas Chinam.
michael Noach
They once asked a young Rav Schach about his yichus.
“The line begins with me,” he said. (At least as I heard it.)
I think that’s a good attitude.
The fact is, though, that stigma’s exist. Some, I think, are well-founded. Some are not. I would like to think that those who have unfounded or distorted stigma’s will not be attracted or attractive to BT parents. And I would like to think that those issues which have a foundation are not denied by either side.
What I worry about is parents who don’t know themselves (both FFBs and BTs), who aren’t real, and/or who are really hiding something (again from both sides).
Something is very odd here. On the one hand I can maybe, just maybe understand that a BT may want to be matched with/fit with a BT more so than an FFB, but the FFB children of BT’s apparently have a strike against them too!? This is insanity. I shudder to think about gerim. It must take what, 4 or 5 generations, before they’re allowed in the ‘club’?
Perhaps people from this kind of velt should realize we’re dealing with people and not breeding animals. Attraction and compatibility should be the main concerns, not whether or not both parties are ‘throughbreds’.
Now, is someone going to ask Rebbetzin Travis how an average couple with ten children are supposed to marry off their children in the chareidi community of Eretz Yisrael — where they’re expected to put up one half or two thirds of an apartment per child?
Orthonomics — do you have a post about that?
I specifically haven’t dealt with IsraeliOrthonomics for a reason. So, David, please be my guest and ask the Rebbitzen your excellent question.
Today is Sunday and here in America, meshulachim are knocking on doors everywhere asking their American brothers and sisters to fund the apartments so they can make shidduchim for their children. I imagine that the Rebbitzen’s answer would be to “fundraise” since that seems to be the solution of choice for these families. Unfortunately for them, the money may even run dry in America since next school years tuitions are once again 5-10% higher.
I have also heard it said the Yaakov Avinu would have been rejected by many yeshivot!!!!
I still don’t get it. In the Religious Zionist circles I became observant in, I never heard of a hozer b’tshuvah having trouble with a shidduch. They had a good yichus…their parents were Jews! Oh, and gerim had a good yichus…they’re directly traced to Avraham Avinu. Potential shidduchim were interested in their character, their learning, their plans for making a living and raising a family and contributing to the Jewish people.
According to the shidduch approach in many circles (as I see it described here repeatedly) Resh Lakish or Rabi Akiva (or Onkelos or Ben Bag Bag) would have trouble making a shidduch!
Sorry my holy friends, but I think something is broken here…
This is indeed a very sensitive issue. I have seen that my friends in Israel, veteran baalei teshuvah from over twenty years ago, are making excellent shidduchim with all kinds of families. And I see that most tend to gravitate to those with a similar background, either FFB or BT olim, where the mechutanim are English speaking as well. The English speaking FFB’s have this tendency as well.
This is very predictable, and for many good reasons, it seems like the best place to look first.
However, there are notable exceptions of BT’s children who have married sons and daughters of very reputable, strong “Yeshivishe” Israeli families, including the sons and daughters of Mashgichim and Roshei Yeshivot. These cases are where the child is very special, and the “meyuchas” child is equally special.
Where the parents are strong and balanced, and have a healthy family, the children are sought after for their own merits. I have not seen that being children of BT hurts their prospects.
However, there is likely a tendency for shadchanim to match the problematic cases of the frum velt with the BT family. They may be thinking, “this boy is problematic and no regular family will look at him, his only chance for a good girl is if we’ll set him up with the child of BT’s.”
These shadchanim mean well, but beware!
Now, is someone going to ask Rebbetzin Travis how an average couple with ten children are supposed to marry off their children in the chareidi community of Eretz Yisrael — where they’re expected to put up one half or two thirds of an apartment per child?
Orthonomics — do you have a post about that?