The Brisker Rav ZTL was once asked how and why his children developed into such exemplary Talmidie Chachamim. The Brisker Rav ZTL replied to the questionner by stating that Tefilah and Tehilim were two main bases as a starting point. I think that the issue of whether, if at all, a family should partake of popular culture and how to deal with the same within the four corners of their house is an issue that warrants discussion.
Obviously, if one has elected not to have a TV , that solves part of the problem. OTOH, that presents the issue of whether one should allow one’s children to visit friends from school who have a TV , etc. For many years, our kids had visitors from families who did not have a TV, despite the fact that we had a TV. However, the amount of time sent in front of the TV was minimal.
Gradually,as a family, we discovered that TV had deteriorated in terms of content, even during the so-called “family hour” and weaned oursleves away from the small amount of time in front of the TV. As R E Buchwald once pointed out, watching TV was the equivalent of bringing in the garbage that we had just taken out. Except for an occasional Yankee game or an old movie, there is really nothing really worth watching. As a child, we always watched the news. However, if one has a radio, the same can be obtained via any all news station at the beginning of the hour. As a NY Giant fan, I also discovered that the commercials were also objectionable as well.
We never darshaned in front of our kids that TV was evil, etc. We just realized that there were far better things to do with our time. FWIW, I think that if one does darshan on the evils of TV, your child will wonder what is so evil about it, especially if you or their friend has an internet connection.
I recently read a series of articles re parenting in a charedi magazine. Maybe I am wrong, but I think that communication with children, demonstrating by one’s own actions what is important and serving as a role model are ultimately far more productive means than insisting , for instance, that a child never watch TV or cannot be seen in shul without a white shirt, black hat , gartel or in tzniusdik attire that appears to be different than one’s neighbors.
We all have to realize that all teens in all cultures go thru experiementation, rebellion, etc that is healthy in some ways and problematic in others. It is important for parents ,especially for BTs to distinguish between these two very different trends and not to use Torah as a weapon in a way that will impact adversely on a child’s growth. I do believe that some Charedi parents who are worried that their child might become (Chas Ve Shalom-their language as documented in some Charedi media) a MO or Religious Zionist may in fact be losing sight of the forest in the trees..
I highly recommend R Wolbe ZTL’s Zeriah uBinyan Bchinuch , the Nesivos Shalom and R D A Twersky’s many works on these issues as well as a means of familiarizing oneself with these issues and for setting forth approaches to the issues.
Michoel, after reading your comments to this article, I truly hope you’ve read R. Y. Horowitz’s many articles on parenting and also the one recently on this site about BT kids going off the derech. Your “philosphy” as you mentioned it here sounds a bit over the top to me. Children who have a bit more breathing room are less likely to rebel.
Jaded,
I remember that date well!
I think it’s probably more the “they pick up mannerisms, speech patterns, facial expressions etc. The very act of looking directly at a… person [with]… middos raos.” then the fact that the people in question happen to be non-Jewish.
The truth is that America today is a chutzpadik society, where children don’t respect their elders, grown-ups don’t respect each other, profanity is common language, sexual mores are thrown out the window (I’ve never actually seen “Sex in the City” but from what I’ve heard, I don’t want to, never mind my children!) etc.
I don’t want my children in public school because I don’t want them interacting with public school children on a regular basis… not because said public school children aren’t Jewish (although many if not most of them aren’t), but because in many cases they embody values antithetical to Torah, and I don’t allow them to watch TV for the very same reason. I don’t want my children to bring home the language and attitudes that I see in today’s non-Jewish children, teens and adults.
Yes I know they’ll eventually hear and/or learn some of those “bad words” if only by reading public restroom walls, but they won’t hear them used on a regular basis, and they’ll learn that these words are unacceptable for them to use at all.
They will see misbehaved people in public and pity for them for it, or wonder at it, but won’t pick up these bad characteristics because they have positive role models at home and school who act with Derech Eretz.
And while we’ve been TV-free for 12+ years now, I do allow DVDs, in moderation. Pre-screened videos and animated children’s classics (Like Harold’s Purple Crayon, for example) mostly. (And my husband and I rent the occasional movie for adult viewing only, although it’s getting harder and harder to find movies to watch that won’t offend us with too much skin or too much profanity.)
But my husband and I decided long ago, before we were even married, way before we had children to consider, that TV just wasn’t worth it. We can waste time perfectly well in front of the computer, and maybe even pick up some Torah learning along the way. And we don’t feel we’re missing out on anything.
“Can I still be literary supervisor?”
Sure! We might ask you though, to collaborate on creating new and improved literature that meets the need. Might be more than you bargained for, but as literary supervisor, you have the freedom to delegate.
Three days later, back to the original topic, I present, yours truly.
We’ve got a small, near dead TV. When the kids were very small, they did watch Sesame St. Then, when they got bigger, we started “the battle of the Simpsons”. But you know something, it provided a good opportunity for us to have valuable discussions about how the character of Homer Simpson (the father) and how his children behave towards him is an antithesis of Torah values. I’ve seem too many instances of cases where kids who didn’t have TV in their own homes watched virtually anything in other homes (not mine). I’d rather discuss the facts about TV with my kids, and maintain supervision – as much as a parent of pre-teens can do so.
A Rebbe of one of my kids once said that if the stuff on TV today was the same as what many of us grew up with (Lucy heter included), all these battles wouldn’t even be taking place.
And as pointed out earlier, Steve’s problem is merely that he’s routing for the Yankees instead of the Mets. Does Yankee stadium offer kosher food on every level? Nah. We do at Shea.
Jaded, I wanna come to your party too. And Lipa has the best bekeshes.
Bob Miller, LOL !
Michoel, your comments are of the worrisome persuasion.They remind mé of this guy I once dated briefly.He was freshly brainwashed and had unfortunately been bleached with non color safe bleach with mixed up results. The kiruv guys were emotionally dyslexic and had mixed up the beach surfer techniques with brain bleachy notions.quite the flammable combination. Anyway the guy in question was a California brilliant awesome ènergy really good beach boy surfer skate board dude turned chareidi à t heart. Ànd was goin on and on about chumrahs and outrageous notions as if they were literal law. After listening to him for an hour and half I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry or pray really hard that those chareidi brainwash bleacher teachers run out of bleach and change professions before they continue ruining other perfectly ok beach boys with théir toxic bleach techniques.
Anyway regarding your task ….. I’m thinkin you should be in charge of love thy neighbors Thursdays.(all the neighbors even the ones sitting next to you on the subway, on your visits to NYC).
M,unfortunately I don’t really know of any orthodox magazines worthy of my seal of approval.
The Jewish magazine I love love love is definitely not of the orthodox persuasion.Can I still be literary supervisor ?
Ron,are you suggesting that I’m not on to something ;-)
And don’t forget filming that commercial which required sampling the alcohol-laced Vitametavegamin. Even back in the supposed innocent 1950s there were examples of getting shikker.
we threw out the TV years ago – never looked back
as far as the I love Lucy heter – were those chocolates she was stuffing in her face and dress cholov yisrael? might make a big difference as to how far the heter goes – gives a whole new meaning to timtum halev
I’m starting to suspect that this isn’t the right thread to discuss if the quality of HBO has gone down since a couple of years ago. Does yeridos hadoros apply to premium cable and not just basic cable? Well, it’s too expensive anyway. Back to renting movies on occasion.
Though I did like The Journalist and the Jihadi. Rabbi Goldson, did you know Daniel Pearl was a Suzuki trained violinist?
I have never heard of the I love Lucy heter, but I have to admit I have always loved Lucy.
Someone made a comment about whether working or being with non-Jews is only damaging to kids. Obviously we all must keep boundaries with others. Others include the opposite sex, other religions, or even non-frum to some extent, depending on the potential damage. Boundaries are an important part of life and a healthy one at that. We just have to figure out the level of the boundary in any given circumstance or relationship, and that I suppose requires thought..
Jaded’s on to something. In fact, that’s why the parents and grandparents and great grandparents of today’s Reform and Conservative and Reconstructionist Jews left Orthodoxy in the first place. Too much focus on externals.
This is historicism. It’s also baloney and it’s calculated either out of a real lack of understanding of history or perhaps to make us feel good about ourselves. Just saying.
Jaded, by the way, those bekishes are pretty comfortable! I imagine. They come in other colors, too, which I know is an issue for you.
Whoop-I meant Chazarah, not charaah!
Bob Miller-If you concentrate on replaying a critical portion of a tape while driving and it R”L causes an accident, I would agree that it could pose as much a distraction as using a cell phone in the same manner. However, there are drashos, lectures, etc that may not require as much chararah to understand and thus allow you to drive with both hands on the wheel. On Erev Shabbos, when I drove home from a job on Long Island, I liked listening to R Yisroel Williger’s tape of R S Carlebach’s nusach for Kabbalas Shabbos . It was a great way to decompress from the office and get focussed on ushering in Shabbos Kodesh .
Bob in comment number 36,
I think gazing at gentiles for extended periods, as a captive audience, is bad for young, impresionable children. And I think that all frum Jews should try to minimize social interaction with the general society. Each individual has to find their own balance but I’m not ashamed to say that less is better than more. I work for a large insurance company that has 400 employees. Only two of us are observant Jews, and only about 10 are Jews altogether. I interact comfortably with everyone. No bags.
I’m Jewish wrote:
“Absolutely unbelievable. The sad thing is, you’re not even ashamed of this comment. I hope BeyondBT’s management repudiates this comment.”
I believe what I wrote. Again, I stipulated “middos raos”. I think that David and Mark attempt to allow a variety of views to be expressed and I appreciate that. In any case, I personally find desparaging charedim or any other sector of Orthodoxy to be much more offensive than desparaging non-Jews, and at least a bit more offensive than desparaging non-Orthodox Jews. Of course it is not a mitzvah to desparage anyone. My point in that previous comment was to provide what I truly believe to be a Torah hashkafa. I beleive (and it is only my opinion) that my perspective is consitent with the Chafetz Chaim, Rabbi Avigdor Miller, the Steipler Gaon and many others. With a bit of digging, I can bli neder provide specific sources that speak of the positive effect of looking at the faces of tzaddikim and the negative effect of the opposite.
Sometimes, perhaps I say things too bluntly because it is good way to get into fights, but I feel that I have written the emes. If you met me in person, you would not find me fanatical.
Steve,
I was responding to a specific statement about seeing non-Jews, and not to a general question of how to maintain focus.
But about the latter:
Many of my offices have been cubicles without doors. However, with my schedule, and my location in the time zone, davening Mincha after work in my neighborhood shul is usually practical. I agree that most workplaces, airports, etc, have quiet corners where davening Mincha is possible.
It would be nice to have the array of lunchtime Torah activities that exists in NYC, but I don’t live in NYC or anything remotely like it. There are, of course, Orthodox sites on the Web, even this one!
For those who commute by car, as I do, I wonder if really good recorded shiurim aren’t to be considered distractions from driving, as cell phones are.
Bob Miller-I forgot to mention one other way of dealing with , minimizing or reminding oneself of what one’s purpose is on the job.Think about the emphasis for a second or two that Chazal place on the importance of davening Mincha. While I have davened by myself in conference rooms, placed my phone on “DND”, closed my office door ,and even davened in stairwells when I had no other option, however, if it is all feasible to daven Mincha with a minyan, I try very hard to do so.
IOW, one can find Mincha minyanim and even shiurim, chavrusos and a Beis Medrash in a variety of locations in major metropolitan cities.Agudath Israel publishes a list of the same which is accessible via the OU’s website. If your employer allows you time for lunch, I cannot reccomend enough the practice of davening Mincha with a minyan. It is a great way to refresh one’s spiritual batteries.
>>In my opinion, having children sit infront of images of gentiles speaking for a lenght of time, regardless of content, is not good. They pick up mannerisms, speech patterns, facial expressions etc. The very act of looking directly at a gentile face can be negative, if the person has middos raos. >>
Absolutely unbelievable. The sad thing is, you’re not even ashamed of this comment. I hope BeyondBT’s management repudiates this comment.
Bob Miller-One way of dealing with or minimizing the non-Jewish atnosphere of one’s commute is by learning or reading something with Torah content. The Ipod with Shas is just one excellent way that one do this. There are also a lot of shiurim that are accessible via an MP3. Look at it this way-while there is a lot of junk that is accessible and downloadable with a standard Ipod or MP3, an IPod with Daf Yomi or an MP# with shiurim can help one’s commute go a lot faster and help you gain much in the way of Limud HaTorah. Likewise, listening to tapes of shiurim or Jewish music can also make your commute go a lot faster.
Michoel,
Regarding your remarkable comment of February 7th, 2007 12:52:
Many of us work and commute in basically non-Jewish environments. Do we now have to wear paper bags over our heads? Or do you think seeing ordinary non-Jews damages only kids?
Jacob, I think I made it pretty clear that I wasn’t advocating inordinate amounts of TV watching time. I think that kids need some passive recreation time and a well chosen TV program is as good for that as anything else.
As for the studies regarding TV, they generally apply to subjects who watch much more than a couple of hours a week.
I don’t even know what to do with Michoel’s commment about looking at gentiles. Look there are plenty of Jews in acting, so it shouldn’t be to hard to find shows that have casts with mostly Jews. Or you can just go for Pixar animation. Is the very act of looking at a computer generated image negative too?
I’ve seen plenty of kids with horrible midos come out of homes with no TV and plenty of kids with great midos come out of homes with lots of TV. I think you’ll find that a much greater indicator of a kids’ midos is the midos of his parents.
Menachem’s comment
“However, I am saying that if you’re going to allow your kids some form of “worldly†recreation TV doesn’t have to be all that evil”
I’m new at this but feel I understand the importance of worldly recreation for my kids when they’re not toiling away in their right-of-center places of learning.
However, there’s a basis to forward the idea that not only are there other forms of worldly recreation external to the TV, but with TV and other types of passive mediums out of the picture kids are more likely to gravitate to more creative and more fulfilling forms of recreation such as artwork and the outdoors.
TV is by no means the sole example of passive recreation but it’s arguably the most prevalent. Analysts concluded that a scence change (such as a new camera angle or completely different environment) occurs every 2 seconds(!) IMO, any parent of any background should take pause to think what that can do to developing a child’s attention span.
Story tapes could be overused as well but it’s more likely to catalyze the imagination and stimulate at least SOME brain activity and overall is probably more educational.
On a tangential note, I’mJewish’s post (#24). If you think you have predeliction for history and could write an article providing a background on why there’s even a BT movement to begin with.
However, IMO the reasons why many people in the past left Orthodoxy is varied, nuanced and not simple. Pre-WWII America was not ready or willing to facilitate Shabbos observance and many found out that the infrastructures of the Old World often built up after hundreds of years could not be replicated overnight in brand new surroundings. What exactly were the externals they focused on that caused a rejection of Orthodoxy?
Also, I heard of a sociology dissertation written about the descendants of those found on the 1920 membership list in Manhattan’s Upper East Side premier (and well-to-do) Reform congregation Temple Emanu-el. Only a small fraction remain involved in the Jewish community or are Jewish at all. Do you have a thesis for that?
Perhaps there’s a basis to ask whether your comment stands up to scrutiny.
Yes,
I, like Menachem, am anxious to disregard Steve’s gratuitous slight to a large segment of the Orthodox Jewish world. And I’m certain that should there ever, on this blog, occur a slight to the MO community, Menachem will join me in focusing on substance.
OK, here we go. (Rolls up sleaves, puts on boxing shoes) In my opinion, having children sit infront of images of gentiles speaking for a lenght of time, regardless of content, is not good. They pick up mannerisms, speech patterns, facial expressions etc. The very act of looking directly at a gentile face can be negative, if the person has middos raos. (Looking at the face of a Jewish rasha is certainly no bargain either.) Having gentiles (I mean decent, normal people) teaching secular subjects in Yeshivos is a bidieved. Television, at best, is worse than that. Aside from content, sitting buttel is very negative. When a child does jigsaw puzzles, they learn patience and self-discipline. When I child puts together a Lego building, they learn creativity. Downtime is a benefit of television and, in theory, it can be educational. It seems however, that these ends can be accomplished in far healthier ways.
Unfortunately, Fred and Ethel never had children. I’m sure by now little Ricky had some kids before Lucy passed away, no?
Was Lucy a gramma? Maybe Ethel was.
Actually there are some terrific shows on Disney that my Dad tapes for my youngest (5) such as “Little Einsteins”, a very educational show.
I believe you’ll find the heter for Lucy in Bava Kamma. There is a machlokes between R Yochanan and Reish Lakeish as to whether or not a fire (Aish, for example the red hedded Lucy) can be viewed directly (eg on stage) or only via a gramma (eg via TV). I think we pasken like Reish Lakeish.
“Does anybody know the source of the I Love Lucy heter?”
The mitzvah to be happy?
Although we tossed out the TV 15 years ago, from the few times that I’ve seen the Disney channel at my parent’s house, I would agree that the TV of the 60s and 70s was less Anti Torah than that of today.
I know a few families that wouldn’t think of letting broadcast TV or secular newspapers into their homes, yet have no problem with I Love Lucy in particular. It’s a little confusing to me, in that Lucy, Ricky, Ethel and Fred are not exactly the paradigms of Torah values.
Does anybody know the source of the I Love Lucy heter?
BTW, about my job. I’d rather take magazines that represent all Torah derachim (why specifically Mishapacha? Because it was used in Steve’s post? This calls for a committee meeting to decide, with JT as literary supervisor), and gift tie it with chocolate tucked in.
I agree with you, Bob. And if we would be less obsessed about labels, we might even find that we have much more in common than we ever would have thought.
When we see a fellow observant Jew, do we see “MO!” “Charedi!” “RZ!”? Or do we see a fellow observant Jew? Some cholent for thought.
As JT alluded, my “topic” is open-minded acceptance of our fellow Jews, and an interest in discussing ideas, not people. Let’s rise above our obsession of putting Jews into square categories.
When we hold a Jew at arm’s length, we can alternate between “admiring” and “denigrating”; when we remove our jaundiced eyeglasses with the accompanying automated label perspective, we don’t evaluate; we are one.
I’m happy to get back on the original topic and offer a slightly different viewpoint.
We’ve always had a TV in the house and have no intention of getting rid of it. Currently the TV is not hooked up to an antenna or cable and thus all of our viewing is on VHS or DVD. In the past at times we’ve been connected, but only on a TV in our bedroom.
Our general policy when the older kids were growing up was that they viewed virtually no broadcast TV, with the exception of WNET children’s programming when they were little and special events like the Olympics when they got older.
Once they were in school there was no time for any viewing during the week. I consider almost any new shows created after the early 70’s (with the exception of Star Trek) to, at best, have anti-religious values. Thus, the small amount of weekend TV viewing that we allowed consisted of tapes of older shows like The Brady Bunch and I Love Lucy and old movie musicals like The Sound of Music and Oklahoma. (My son-in-law is awed that we somehow raised my oldest daughter as if she grew up in the 60’s and 70’s. :)
Realize, I’m not talking about the several hours of TV that the typical American watches a day. We’re talking a couple of hours a week.
My basic feeling is that, like most things, TV can be used with control and moderation to provide a small source of recreation and even education for kids. I also believe that it’s an important way to teach kids how to be selective.
I’m not saying that you should go out and get a TV if you don’t have one. Many of you have made a strong case for abstinence. However, I am saying that if you’re going to allow your kids some form of “worldly” recreation TV doesn’t have to be all that evil.
>>Àlso , everyone yeah there are plenty of chareidim that use externals as the basis for théir household and parenting structure system.>>
Jaded’s on to something. In fact, that’s why the parents and grandparents and great grandparents of today’s Reform and Conservative and Reconstructionist Jews left Orthodoxy in the first place. Too much focus on externals.
Jaded,
You left me out!! What I am going to do?
JT said, “Bob Miller can surprise üs with his new and improved cholent…”
Anyone who wants my previously described (and ridiculed) tuna cholent needs to come out here to cold icy Indy, home of NFL champions. But not to my house, where the rules say I can’t even think about it.
At any rate, this (which JT may have been hinting at above) is a basic fact: we each seem to have our own special Topic A, which finds its way into our comments no matter what the original article was about. Judging from this and other Orthodox blogs, the most popular Topic A is “How dare They be unlike Us?”
Its feverishly fascinating how everyone picks théir particular part of a post and starts goin off on stuff.
I think its time for Steve Brizel to host movie and music Mondays. I think Thé Lonely Man of Faith is the perfect pick.Rabbi Simenowitz can hook üs up with the Vermont sugar and honey glazed popcorn. And Ron Coleman will be handin out the “ebony bekeshes” for your viewing comfort. M can provide everyone with a complimentary copy of the oh so coveted Mishpacha magazine replete with subtle chareidi views on stuff securely written and placed right beside glossy pictures and utterly less than enchanting titles to enhance lack of creative writing skills !!
Bob Miller can suprise üs with his new and improved cholent in a can cakes. (your supposed to prepare for the Sabbath early on in the week)
Àlso , everyone yeah there are plenty of chareidim that use externals as the basis for théir household and parenting structure system and subsequently find it distinctly disheartening and à cutely so when one of théir many many offsprings doesn’t share the same perspectives on stuff.
M-I am not sure if I posted this before or after my trip to EY, but if you have any questions as to my appreciation and admiration for the Charedi world, I would suggest that you read my travelogue here re that trip and then, along with any other reader who may have been upset by my terminology, substitute any parent whose child seeks a derech different from their parents. I agree that labels are wrong and am glad that we agree on Off The Derech, Dr Wikler and R Horowitz’s sterling abilities and suggestions . Indeed, the entire Torah world gains from their insight.
“The Derech before dismissing its methodology and conclusions. Until then, this discussion will not be fruitful. FWIW, Dr Wikler and R Horowitz both used the example of improperly using minhagim as a weapon in raising children.”
Oy vey. Steve, are you reading my comments? Did anyone dismiss “Off the Derech”, its methodology or conclusions? It’s a wonderful book! How is this wonderful book related to quotes that substantiate your assertion of “I do believe that some Charedi parents who are worried that their child might become (CHAS VE SHALOM- THEIR LANGUAGE AS DOCUMENTED IN SOME CHAREDI MEDIA) a MO or Religious Zionist”?
And yes, Dr. Wikler and R’ Horowitz both use the example of improperly using minhagim as a weapon in raising children. How does this substantiate your assertions regarding Charedim? They both attend Charedi shuls, send their children to Charedi institutions, learned at Charedi institutions themselves, and are involved in Charedi life. Did you mean to say that these are both wonderful examples of the Charedi community, who are instrumental in guiding countless families re parenting and other issues? I agree.
I cringe when using labels on such exemplary people, though, as both are tolerant, embracing of all Jews, and rise above the pettiness of labels. But the fact that they are wonderful is certainly not evidence of deficiencies in Charedi parenting! Quite the contrary… Why do you keep referring to their astute and helpful guidelines in response to a request for direct quotes on another topic? I’m not following your train of thought.
M-You are correct. Many, nut by no means all parents, regardless of their hashkafic POV, become upset when an adolescent elects to follow a different derech. There is no hashkafic boundary line in this regard. Yet, I saw the discussions in Mishpacha. WADR,I would suggest that you read Off The Derech before dismissing its methodology and conclusions. Until then, this discussion will not be fruitful. FWIW, Dr Wikler and R Horowitz both used the example of improperly using minhagim as a weapon in raising children.
Shmuel-FYI, I meant no swipe at the Charedi world. I apologize if you read my post in that manner.
I agree with Reb Shmuel, as usual. I was really taken aback by this —
I think that communication with children, demonstrating by one’s own actions what is important and serving as a role model are ultimately far more productive means than insisting, for instance, that a child never watch TV or cannot be seen in shul without a white shirt, black hat, gartel or in tzniusdik attire that appears to be different than one’s neighbors.
Steve, who exactly is it who considers these things more important than “communication with children”? This is such a straw man! Steve, you sound (I know that you are not) like the intolerant one — intolerant of a subculture that places a different value on a degree of traditional dress and a level of uniformity that you don’t share. It detracts from your thesis.
“They are well received by (Charedi) community audiences.”
Regarding my comment above: they are, of course, well received by other communities as well. This is not relevant to my point, but important to note. I would also add Rabbi Russell as well in this discussion.
I think that the overwhelming majority of the reactions( at least I know mine was) was amazement that you have once again managed to obscure whatever point you were trying to make with your usual knee jerk congenital attack on the chareidi. Do you read your posts before you send them in? Why must any posting from you contain the mandatory pre-emptive swipe at anyone who’s hashkafa or thinking is different than yours. Is that the YU TUM way? Do you feel the ad hominem attacks add spice and zest to your otherwise bland, holier than thou and unremarkable postings? Ironically, you claim that “darshaning” away the evils of society is oddly counter-productive. Why don’t you take your own advice and stop “darshening” (pontificating would be a more accurate term) at the readers of this blog. You tend to insult their intelligence as well as their integrity. Get off your high and mighty horse and stop thumping that dogeared copy of “Lonely Man of Faith” in everyone’s face. It’s getting old.
BTW with all the rushes to judgment, misinformation, narrow-minded thinking, bible thumping and grandstanding, are you sure you’re not really a closet chareidi?
““Off the Derechâ€, there are countless interviews with young adults and frum mental health professionals in which a child’s not wanting to wear a hat, dressing in a tznous manner but not according to communal norms , wanting to live in EY or similar perspectives that challenge Charedi hashkafa were viewed as rebellious by clearly Charedi parents”
Are these the direct quotes? From anonymous interviews? Steve, where are the quotes from the Charedi media, which you stated use “chas v’shalom” regarding MO or RZ? Perhaps they never existed, and it was a slip of the pen?
“Take a look at the interview with R D M Wikler and what R Y Horowitz posits as halacha, chumrah, minhag, etc”
Both R’ Horowitz and R’ Wikler (who are not MO or RZ, although I wouldn’t be surprised if they, like I, don’t appreciate labels, and prefer to identify as observant, Torah Jews) speak beautifully and to the point. They are well received by (Charedi) community audiences. They are wonderful examples of what is right, and I’m glad you pointed them out. How are their words related to your assertion that “some Charedi parents who are worried that their child might become (Chas Ve Shalom-their language as documented in some Charedi media) a MO or Religious Zionist”?
“Mishpacha does not have archives on its website, but I have read a number of articles in which Charedi parents voiced a view that they would love a child who became RZ or dressed in attire that showed identification with that community, despite that child’s change in hashkafa from his or her family. It struck me as if the parents were implictly saying they would love their child if the child either (1) R’L dropped observance altogether of (2) became RZ-as if the same were halachically or hashkafically the same.”
Perhaps one should refrain from seeing what is not there, implicitly or otherwise. Most families would like their children to follow in their footsteps. This preference is universally applicable. Many secular or R/C parents become upset when their children take on Mitzvah observance, not because they look down upon religion, but because their child has rejected their way. RZ parents who fervently feel that the Hesder Yeshiva/Tzahal derech is a crucial value might feel hurt if their child becomes Charedi and enrolls in a learning-only Yeshiva. Likewise, MO parents may feel rejected or upset if their child “flips out” and moves to a Charedi ideology and lifestyle. No need to put a spin on Charedi feelings when it is their turn to see a child move away from their values.
I save most of the Mishpacha magazines, so if you have an issue date, perhaps we could both look up the sources.
Again, parenting, and TV as part of it, is such an important topic. Is it not possible to discuss parenting without denigrating (with no sources) one group? Do you somehow feel that Charedi parents are less skilled in parenting than MO or RZ? If you do believe this, how is it relevant to the topic of how much or how little TV? Or to the sage advice of the Brisker Rav ZTL and Rav Wolbe ZTL? Or Rabbi Buchwald?
This is an important topic, and shouldn’t be a springboard for side swipes at Charedim. We can rise above that, and discuss ideas, apolitically.
FYI, my wife reminded me that our TV actually died a little over 12 years ago (I said 15+ years in a comment above)
Michoel, M and anyone else who have a similar reaction to my first post. Let me clarify this issue. In my post on this issue, I by no means meant or even implied that one’s hashkafa could lead to one’s children going off the derech and I was only commenting on what I have read.
I think that we have discussed in many other contexts whether the cause of teens and adults going off the derech are internal ( i.e.dysfunctional families, educators, schools and the need for social conformity) as opposed to external causes ( i.e western culture, net, etc). By all means, one would never consider hashkafa per se as a cause, although R Y Horowitz and mental health professionals would seem to indicate that not knowing the difference between halacha, chumrah, minhag or communal custom can be very important in parenting,especially for the BT parent,
Michoel and M-First of all, for those who have read “Off the Derech”, there are countless interviews with young adults and frum mental health professionals in which a child’s not wanting to wear a hat, dressing in a tznous manner but not according to communal norms , wanting to live in EY or similar perspectives that challenge Charedi hashkafa were viewed as rebellious by clearly Charedi parents. (I should note that although the JO gace “Off the Derech” a rave and Jewish Action did not,some letters in subsequent issues of the JO either suggested that the phenomeon did not occur in the Charedi world or minimized it in comparison with respect to the MO world.)
Take a look at the interview with R D M Wikler and what R Y Horowitz posits as halacha, chumrah, minhag, etc. Mishpacha does not have archives on its website, but I have read a number of articles in which Charedi parents voiced a view that they would love a child who became RZ or dressed in attire that showed identification with that community, despite that child’s change in hashkafa from his or her family. It struck me as if the parents were implictly saying they would love their child if the child either (1) R’L dropped observance altogether of (2) became RZ-as if the same were halachically or hashkafically the same.
“I recently read a series of articles re parenting in a charedi magazine. Maybe I am wrong, but I think that communication with children, demonstrating by one’s own actions what is important and serving as a role model are ultimately far more productive means than insisting , for instance, that a child never watch TV or cannot be seen in shul without a white shirt, black hat , gartel or in tzniusdik attire that appears to be different than one’s neighbors.”
It’s hard to evaluate what you are saying without any quotes of the magazine series. We don’t know if you are “wrong” or not in terms of this series, without being given the exact source and quotes.
The parenting articles that I have seen in Charedi papers were for the most part superb, and fully cognizant of the nuances involved in parenting.
Not to say you didn’t happen to come across the occasional bad apple, but referencing it as a “Charedi magazine” is implying something that is less than accurate.
“I do believe that some Charedi parents who are worried that their child might become (Chas Ve Shalom-their language as documented in some Charedi media) a MO or Religious Zionist may in fact be losing sight of the forest in the trees..”
I think you need to substantiate this. Responsible writing requires this. In the American Charedi media, I believe this is false. What are the direct quotes?
Perhaps it would be more useful to discuss parenting without bringing in the Charedi/MO/RZ divide.
Those of us who eschew TV, or have weaned ourselves off much of it, do so for spiritual/family/quality of life issues.
Let’s not obsess over labels, and invoke them in every discussion- it’s unhelpful, and in this case, detached from reality.
Steve,
I respectfully insist that you provide even one specific case of charedi media using the term “chas v’shalom” with regard to a child becoming MO. One is, of course not “some”, but please provide one.
We have chosen to not have television, internet, etc. in our home our entire married lives, though we did grow up with it. I often wonder what our kids will choose to do. They have been exposed to things outside, I am sure, hopefully minimally. We also tried to take the approach of not making a big deal out of it, sometimes that can invite interest as to why something is opposed to vehemently. Instead we just communicated why we felt TVs and internets, etc were not appropriate for us and we make use of time together in more connected, productive ways. We play games, outings, our kids have developed multiple talents with expertise, musically, artistically, and otherwise. One wonders in the midst of such full lives when there would be any time for any of that anyhow. Though when non-frum or non-Jews have come to my house for any number of reasons, they are always amazed by that, saying “What do you do instead”?. I don’t feel that we have or are missing anything, even things potentially profound or meaningful, as thankfuly there is much of that available in real life interactions, shiurim, and other human relationships.
I have noticed that there are two kinds of reactions people may have when they are not used to television viewing. For example, when going to a Radio Shack or department store where there are numerous large screens on, some folks become mesmerized, unable to detach from the screen, even while trying to speak to a clerk, others simply ignore it.
“Um….perhaps that’s a little too label-obsessed? Can’t say I’m a spokesperson for Charedi Inc but my chief concern is my children picking up lazy habits, brain rot, an offensive vocabulary and developing bad traits from TV characters who can be very influential if they come across as amusing, fun and stuff.”
Well, then, you don’t let them be lazy and say offensive words. Simple as that. The trend of Orthodoxy to want to hide everything in a closet is a frightening one, because it doesn’t help develop inner strength and character. What’s so hard about using TV for good worthwhile programming and foregoing the rest?
Interesting stuff Steve, a bit on the stifling side of lenient though.
Àlso , Just as an FYA shows of implicit importance like Desperate Housewives and Grays Anatomy are available online for your viewing pleasure. I’m not an idle couch sloucher lover, but there are a number of shows that really have so much depth , meaning à nd profound dialogue.Just so you know.
This includes a short description of one of my sports radio experiences:
http://mishmar.blogspot.com/2007/01/torah-im-pro-sports.html#links
Steve,
First of all, GO GIANTS!!!!
Seriously, though, I find myself, and the rest of the family, watching less and less shows. We watch the news, I am into sports (Mets, Giants, NFL), and my youngest likes Anime cartoons, since she aspires to be a voice actress one day. That’s really about it. We don’t have “favorite shows” anymore. We are too busy to get cable (not to mention the $$ involved…9 years ago we made a decision…computer or cable..well, you know what won out in our house). Plus we are very busy with more important things. Now that the NFL is done with (except for the Pro Bowl), I will REALLY cut down on TV watching.
I think if you have a TV, use caution (esp if you have cable, since there are so many more choices).
It sort of reminds me of the old-fashioned homes before there was TV!
Marty
The radio isn’t so antiseptic either. Commercials for certain products that used to be broadcast only at 11PM can now be heard on 11AM.
Not sure what you mean by “darshening”. As far as explaining to kids that there are better things to do with one’s time, no doubt but one can waste countless hours by the radio as well.
When my kids asked why we didn’t have a TV we told them that there’s a lot of Lashon Hora and other things which aren’t nice.
As far as
“I do believe that some Charedi parents who are worried that their child might become (Chas Ve Shalom-their language as documented in some Charedi media) a MO or Religious Zionist may in fact be losing sight of the forest in the trees.. ”
Um….perhaps that’s a little too label-obsessed? Can’t say I’m a spokesperson for Charedi Inc but my chief concern is my children picking up lazy habits, brain rot, an offensive vocabulary and developing bad traits from TV characters who can be very influential if they come across as amusing, fun and stuff.
Also, Yankee and Giant games are for sure NOT worth watching. The Mets and the Jets? Well, that’s a different story.
Some 15+ years ago, we realized that TV network and cable programming was getting worse than ever. Despite occasional reflections that I should put a bat to the picture tube, inertia prevailed. There was always the excuse that some programs were really useful or semi-harmless, and not degenerate mindless filth or radical left propaganda masquerading as news and analysis.
Finally, the tube died “naturally”, and it was a fairly easy decision not to replace the TV.
Our kids, all in day school, were not particularly alarmed and found plenty of other things to do. Previously, they had not been couch potatoes anyway.
Since that time, computers and cellphones, with their many available bells and whistles, have developed greater addiction potential. Their proper use is another discussion. Families can have genuine needs for these, so some discipline (inner and outer) is needed to avoid improper use.
Radio programming leaves much to be desired, but at least the problem of wrong images is absent.
In general, we ought to face up to the truth about our host civilization in America. For all its good points, such as personal freedom and opportunity, and its defense of the free world, its morals are in free fall. We can already see the toll this has taken on the American Jewish community, even in our sector. It’s time to reappraise how much isolation we can and should aim for. This is not your father’s America.