It seems that many BTs never bridge the Gemora Gap. That is they never develop the skills to really be able to sit and learn Gemora.
What would you suggest for such people who can’t go to learn in Yeshiva for a few years:
1) Thank G-d for Artscroll and learn Daf Yomi
2) Put aside the Artscroll and keep on trying to crack the Gemora, even if it takes years to master the skills
3) Learn things other than Gemora
I think Gemara is great. I know that ‘Torah-true Judaism’ is still around because of it.
That being said, I’m a middle age (b’ezrat Hashem) chozeir b’tshuva and attend a shiur where the (very paitient) rabbi spoon-feeds us the gemara – we sit around and discuss, ask questions etc. It’s great.
After reading many of the above posts, I guess I should feel guilty, but I don’t. I learn the parsha, I attend a Mishna Brurua and Mishnayos shiur, and enjoy learning from makshavah essays/books.
Kol hakavod to everyone who toils in the sea of Gemara – I really respect them – but I don’t think I’m a second rate citizen because I don’t. I hope this is not sacrilegious, but I actually think it might be a waste of my time to (try to) intensively learn Gemara – I’m better at other things. Uh-oh – did I got to far? :-)
Yaakov:
Sorry to take such a long time to respond.
Yes, I agree that learning the same Gemara 40 times over is boring. Therefore, it should be broken up into bit sized chunks.
Let’s say someone only has 90 minutes to devote to learning how to learn Gemara. He could spend 60 minutes pushing ahead, ideally with a shiur or chavruta, discussing, asking questions, gaining clarity. Then 30 minutes on review. In that review period, he continues to review the old material; the more you review it, the quicker you can cover the old material and then add the newer material to the review session.
Only cover the amount of ground in each session that the student can really get a solid grasp on, and then review what he knows and understands. At the beginning, it may take over two weeks to cover a page of Gemara. In the review session, it might take 3-6 weeks to complete 40 reviews of the first page studied.
The goal is to master completely what you’ve learnt. That gives a solid foundation for further learning, as opposed to building in quicksand.
The review process is not boring! The more you know it, memorize it, get it into your kishkes, the more you’ll enjoy it.
To quote Rav Orlowek: “One of my talmidim told me that the greatest pleasure he’d ever had, and believe me, he’d seen them all, was the pleasure of mastering a blat Gemara.â€
Hi,
I know I’m a little late here, but since I’m “in the parsha” now I thought I’d add a couple of cents.
I would answer the original multiple choice by saying “all of the above”, depending on the situation. And of course, I would add a semi-joking 4th item:
4) Move to Israel with a U.S.-based job so you can work at night and learn during the day.
I feel very blessed, after attempting 1-3, to be having a modicum of success with 4. The success comes from:
– learning several hours a day, every day.
– learning in the morning, rather than at the end of an exhausting work day.
– learning in a yeshiva that teaches building blocks similar to what David Schallheim described.
While the Artscroll Gemoras are an amazing accomplishment, I think that they hinder the process of learning how to learn. They are great for gaining the breadth of information in b’kiyus, daf yomi-type shiurim and they are a terrific reference to use when stuck on a word or phrase. But learning to learn with them, IMO, short circuits the process. It’s the difference between climbing Mt. Everest and taking a helicopter to the top.
I heard another great alternative if one cannot commit to serious amounts of learning and yet wants to feel a sense of accomplishment. One of the Rabbis in Edison, NJ had suggested that we select a topic and become a “baki” (expert) in it. For example, pick hilchos Shabbos. Learn the relevant psukim, gemoras, shulchan aruch, halacha l’maasa, etc. so you can, as he phrased it, “put it in your back pocket”. I know people who did this and found it very satisfying.
I think it’s important to make a distinction between young people and adults when it comes to learning.
The adult mind is mature and capable of functioning at a high level, so it’s very possible that they can understand complex things in Gemora, if presented properly.
For a young person it makes sense to go through all the necessary building blocks step by step over time. And a young person under 17 might not always be able to grasp the back and forth or the havana of complex sugyas.
Individuals and groups like to think they’re so special that normal rules and logic don’t apply to them. Also, we’ve become so spoiled, with low attention spans and all, that any dullness is taboo.
Schools often try to teach word recognition in English and other languages (even very phonetic ones such as Hebrew) using clever tricks instead of phonics, causing lasting reading deficiencies among the students. The logical way is thought to be too dull.
Drill in things like multiplication tables was once considered to be dull but necessary. The dullness was balanced off by other, more engaging subjects. A skilled instructor should be able to weave the routine into the entertaining.
Chazal, Rishonim, Ramchal, etc., all valued and often described an orderly progression of learning. Nowadays, for the sake of getting that “sizzle” early, we often plunge too quickly into complex topics.
Well, I agree with Bob agreeing with me :)
David, learning words/grammar is boring but going over the same gmara 40 times is not? I didn’t say just learn vocabulary and grammar. Learn the basics and start reading EASIER stuff. Try to get some grounding in Rashi on chumash – he quotes lots of gmaras too and then you can look them up in the gmara to work on your skills. Tyring to go to fast too soon may be fun and exciting but it usually takes a lot longer and has a decent chance of failing. Of course, you should have a chavrusa/shiur if you can – but even if you don’t you can still learn how to learn.
Finally, it depends on your goal. If the goal is to be able to participate in a Daf Yomi where most people are learning from an Artscroll then go ahead and start learning with Artscroll to pick up the gmara’s structure. If your goal is to eventually be able to tackle Rishonim, poskim and Acharonim you need a good basis and you should get it at the beginning.
Well put, Steve. For sure we can all aspire to be Bnei Torah in the sense you mention plus the broader sense.
Yes, great catch on that Passaic story actually earlier tonight from Belle. Another friend also sent it to me earlier. Quite a coincidence!
Ron-Many of my classmates in JSS not only have smicha but also are kovea itim on a daily basis. I would distinguish between being a Ben Torah and a Talmid Chacham. Being a Ben Torah has many meanings but IMO, it can mean that you want to spend your spare time as much as possible learning or with a sefer of one variety or another and looking forward to buying sefarim to augmment one’s library on a fairly constant basis.
Being a Talmid Chacham IMO means that you are on a higher level. I can’t define it but Mark’s examples are a good start. I would include attending a high level shiur and chabura and being able to contribute to the proceedings in a constructive manner on a consistent basis.
BTW, in a totally unrelated context, the OU website has a great example on Passaic which IMO sets forth your view of how Passaic developed since the opening of the yeshiva.
I taught beginning Gemara for many years. Let me try to impart some advice and tips based on my experience.
The idea of learning the building blocks before you dive in is boring and impractical, i.e., because it’s so boring it’s impractical–only one in a thousand would stick it out.
The ideal is to have a lively and engaging shiur or chavruta to bring you into the subject, fight over the ideas as in milchmata shel Torah, and at the same time to have the key words of vocabulary and the Gemara’s logical patterns emphatically pointed out as you encounter them.
It pays much more dividends to review one page forty times until you know it by heart than to learn forty pages in that same time period. Through review you pick up a good sense of the give and take of the Gemara, and you’d be surprised how many key structures of the Gemara’s typical logical sequences (Shakla v’Taryah) you’ll find on one page alone. You’ll gain much more vocabulary and reading skills this way.
Of course, you should continue to learn new material as you simultaneously review the old.
You should make a list of the key words as you see them in context and memorize them. Also, it’s a good technique to write the entire Shakla v’Taryah out in longhand (do it on your laptop). This crystallizes the concepts and the structures of the Gemara in your mind.
Don’t write the English words on top of the Hebrew words in the Gemara. Instead, use footnotes—make a little number above the word and write the translation on the side of your Gemara. That’s because if the English word is above the Hebrew one you’ll always be reading the English instead of memorizing the meaning of the Hebrew word.
Above all – do it the way you enjoy the most! If you like learning a new page every day, do it! If you want to memorize the Talmudic Aramaic dictionary first – go for it!
As the man said (okay, I’m corrupting what the man said, but whatever): The medium is the message. The medium of Torah study has to be pleasure. That is the first and absolute criteria that will enable us to stick with it through thick and thin.
I (15:31) advocated learning KEY words and grammar before diving in, not the entire language. That’s not too much to ask.
One question is how realistic we are going to be. Ideally one should learn it from the ground up with vocabulary and technical skills, etc.
But I think many BTs, that are post college, are not going to put in the time necessary given the amount of time they have allocated to learn.
The question then becomes what type of Gemora learning is feasible without all the vocabulary and grammar basics.
I think that one can go deep into a sugya, even if they are weak on skills, if they have the right chavrusa or teacher.
I beg to differ, because we’re not talking here about that kind of spoken language at all.
No no no. Do NOT spend a significant time studying straight grammar unless you are an unusual case. The most common and quickest way to learn a new spoken language is to jump in and speak it (while continuing to study grammar as well). When learning gemarra, start studying inside and through that you will automatically begin to aquire a grasp of the grammar and vocabulary. Also, spend a bit of time studying the grammar in a more structured way.
Let me second Yaakov on an important point. Learning a new language, you need to do the drudge work of getting the key words and grammar cold. It doesn’t matter that others around you have been seemingly able to wing it; whatever they accomplished could have been enhanced, too.
Unfortunately, much Jewish education today seems to be based on hitting the texts, even high level ones, before mastering the prerequisite building blocks.
I have to take some issue with the suggested methods of beginning to learn gmara. Mark mentioned (and I agree) that the most important and basic step is the vocabulary. Gmara is a different language: it’s not English, it’s not even Hebrew. Well, how does one learn a new language? By opening a book and with translation? No… first you memeorize basic words, verbs, and learn some grammar. Then you start reading simple sentences and, eventually, increase the length, difficulty and sophistication of the portions you read. As you read you also realize the style and method of speach unique to the language.
So, I would suggest first getting Yitzchak Frank’s (or comparable) intro. to gmara. There he explains the basic words, concepts, grammar, etc. Then, read more simple (and shorter) things that are written in rabbinic Hebrew (which tends to include terms from gmara) such as Rashi on chumash, Bartenura on mishna, etc. (English is available to check on words only). Next, choose a perek (the third perek of Megilla would be my choice) and learn the mishnayos with Bartenura or Kehati. Finally open the gmara…
Of course, memorizing words is boring, but…
This is not a simple or short process. Rather this is the way I would suggest to someone how to start gmara.
PS. Tosafos is one of the hardest Rishonim to read – after Rashi go to the Rosh instead…
Ron,
Bli neder I will bring an Artscroll to work (where I have web access) and translate Rav Aharon’s letter, or at least parts of it for BeyondBT.
There is an obligation to be Ameilus B’Torah – to toil or work hard in learning Torah.
A friend of mine pointed out that in our generation it is more like Email-Us-the-Torah. We want it easy.
My understanding of the Ameilus requirement is there should be some part of our learning where we are banging our heads against the wall. Some part of our learning has to cause brain pain.
This is an issue for BTs and FFBs alike. Many FFBs had many years of brain pain in Yeshiva, but somehow mis-calculated that Hashem does not want that after they left Yeshiva.
What are the different forms of brain pain when learning Gemora?
1) Understanding the basic concepts and vocabulary and getting clear the basic steps of the Gemora.
Art Scroll does a great job of the basics, so if you use Art Scroll, you might want to take the next step to really understand what Art Scroll is saying by reading and understanding all the notes.
2) Understanding every word of Rashi, why he says what he says where he says it.
3 ) Doing Tosfos which gives us deeper understanding of what’s going on in the flow and sometimes understands the Gemora different from Rashi.
4) Other Rishonim and try to understand the differences in how they understand the Gemora.
5) Achronim on Tosfos and the other Rishonim.
6) The pilpul of the Rosh HaYeshiva of the last 100 years discussing the Achronim and the Rishonim.
7) Giving your own Chaburas on a sugya.
This is one perspective of the steps in learning. I think each person needs to be in one or more steps where he is experiencing brain pain in some of his weekly/daily learning. A Chavrusa is a tremendous asset in achieving brain pain.
Michoel, that’s a little like a cruel joke, though you did not mean it that way. It’s not as if R’ Aharon’s letter is translated (I mean “elucidated”)!
Someone should probably give a shiur on that letter.
I think the point of this post is being lost on some of the commentators here. The question posed is how to help a BT who is estranged from the world of gemara bridge the gap. I would venture to guess that many of the BTs who fall into this group were, because of financial, familial or other valid reasons, unable to spend the substantial period of time in yeshiva that most of the commentators here are suggesting. Therefore, to give chizuk to those who are not able to drop everything and go to yeshiva but still want to learn gemara – a goal which I think is very important – I would reiterate: Don’t lose hope! Artscroll is a wonderful thing; so is Daf Yomi. All you need is a positive attitude, a desire to learn, and the dedication to attend a daily shiur. You can do it, and your learning will be very precious to Hashem. Your learning will not be a b’dieved. On the other hand, if you have the means and opportunity to attend yeshiva, by all means, see the other comments posted here.
Michael,
I would recommend that you open your Artscroll and read (get some help as necessary) the lengthy letter of approbation from Rav Aharon Shechter, the Rosh Yeshiva of Chaim Berlin. I think you will find you question well answered there.
I am fairly new as BT and do have one tractacte at home from Artscroll
What I do not understand is do you really need to know hebrew and aramaic to really understand Talmud? what is wrong with using an english translation such as Artscroll especailly with all the footnotes that helps explain?
Esti….my hats off to your husband for his efforts to learn. It is one’s efforts that Ha Kadosh Baruch Hu is most pleased with, not one’s IQ. Our job here is to identify our tikun neshama, and use the abilities and talents that Hashem has granted us the best we can. Amassing a huge amount of knowledge is admirable, so long as it is reflected in one’s actions and outlook. A person who has sat and learned for years, but didn’t apply what he learned in life is sort of like a book that sits on the shelf and never gets read. Better we should all strive to be tzadikim, and keep this goal in mind while we’re all shteiging away in the beis medrash.
I would agree with everything that Bob said.
In addition, just keep plugging!
I imagine Steve will agree that not too many BT’s will become talmidei chachomim, of course — especially those whose first language is English. Those that do mostly go to Israel and stay there. There are many ways to define a Talmid Chacham, but regardless of the definition chosen you can probably do pretty well by this rule I have stated.
A side point: BT’s should in fact be aware that although many of the outstanding rabbis they encounter are very erudite in learning, and because they are in kiruv are typically great at teaching Torah, many would not necessarily be regarded as talmidei chachomim by other talmidei chachomim. I say this just as a matter of cultural understanding.
There are exceptions, notable ones, but they really are exceptional, to both the “rules” I have proposed above.
Most of us should aspire to every-increasing fluency and a goal of “knowing how to learn,” a very fuzzy goal admittedly! Artscroll also doesn’t teach you that, however. That does not mean it can’t be a source of very rewarding learning, as Steve says.
I am kind of fascinated that no one has poked in here about the issue of women learning gemara. I am sure there is some thread on the blog that predates my involvement where this has been slugged out, but I am certain that the sex-based division of intellectual labor does not make kiruv, or certain kinds of “retention” of frum people, easier. I don’t have any daughters and although I regret that I will in all probability never fulfill Beis Hillel’s “shiur” for fruitful multiplication (one girl and one boy offspring), my very well-educated wife and I wonder how we would deal with this distinction in an intellectually honest and positive way.
But, as I said, it’s not like anyone mentioned this.
Okay, I realize this isn’t the place for a woman’s comment, but since my husband doesn’t ever log onto this site, I’ll throw in my 2 cents, via his learning. We did spend a good amount of savings to spend 11 months for him to learn in yeshiva, unfortunately at the age we did it, and the yeshiva he was in, he never got into a groove to really learn, as they kept switching his shiur, his rebbe, his everything until shortly before we had to go back to the US (lack of funds, we planned and realized we only had savings for one year, and he was 38, not 26). Now, at 44, he proudly does Kollel Dirshu (amud a day, vs a daf a day) which meets for a bit less than an hour every morning before davening (yes its early) so the pace is a bit easier than Daf Yomi. And he sits and learns by himself with the Artscroll (even the BTs in his shiur have given up trying to learn with him as nobody wants to learn with the Artscroll). His goal is to be yotzei the mitzvah of learning. Realistically, I don’t think he grasps what he’s learning. He says he can’t concentrate to listen to the Dirshu shiur with the rabbi and can’t follow as quickly as the other guys do with the shiur, and he’s given up doing the tests which were very time consuming but did require him to really learn the material. Is this better? Don’t know, but he does it. So somewhere, he’s getting credit for leaving the house at 5:30AM to learn Torah! Whatever you do, if you stay in the game and learn, you’re still learning, right?
One more point-the English ArtScroll Shas is a momentous achievement and has aided many BTs and FFBs who would never even considerd learning once they left yeshivos. However, it cannot serve as a means to become a Talmid Chacham.
I think that every BT has to spend some time in a yeshiva where he can learn the basics of “it and not about it.” It helps to have a desire and curiousity to read. I do know that in JSS, you could and would be asked very seriously not to bring a Soncino, the predecessor of ArtScroll to class. I took that advice very seriously and never bought, let alone used a Soncino, or a Steinzalz or ArtScroll. We all struggled, but we gradually realized that learning how to learn was a long and drawn out process with no short cuts, You need a good chavrusa whose skills may be different than yours-better in svara ( logic) than reading the words. You also need a rebbe who can explain on what is going on between the lines. I think that getting a grasp on what is a Mishnah, Tosefa, Braisa, Tanna, Amora, Have Aminah and Maskanah as well as the relationship between the Talmud, Rishonim, SA and contemporary Poskei Zmanenu is critical so that one does not lose sight of the forest in the trees. kashe, terutz, etc as well as why the Talmud will reject a series of proofs until it accepts one proof or leaves the question unresolved is very important. Despite the fact that the ArtScroll Shas is more popular and better in many ways than Steinzaltz, the Steinzaltz reference volume and guide to the Talmud is a superb volume on many of these issues and I I highly recommend it along with the guides to Aramaic grammar published by Feldheim. In EY, there is a wonderful Hebrew only sefer called Birur Halacha which consists of the Talmud in the traditional Tzuras HaDaf with discussions of the Rishonim and Poskim in very easy Hebrew. My chavrusas both use it very regularly.
I tried DY on tape for the Machzor of DY that ended in the mid 1990s and it was fantastic. Except for a few stoppages here and there, I was zoche to finish most of Shas. At our oldest daughter’s urging, I decided to start the DY again a few months after the Siyum in 2005. I have a small Shas on an Ipod which I listen to the shiur, underline key passages in Rashi, Tosfos and make my own references to halachos in Rambam and SA. I found that since the Maggidie shiur generally cite explanations from the Ritva that the Mosad HaRav Kook edition of the Ritva was a fantastic investment along with a Frankel Rambam and the Encyclopedia Talmudis, which RHS suggested that I buy because it gives you a grasp of any halacha from its roots to its contemporary applications. Another classic sefer that covers almost every sugya ( and mitzva) is the Minchas Chinuch. I try to use either a long Shabbos night or afternoon for review of my marginal notes and for further inquiry.As I stand at the edge of a siyum on Moed, I think that for bkius and covering ground, DY is great, especially if you make time for review. DY is especially good for instilling Yiras Shamayim and Kavod Chazal when one takes a step back and realizes the concepts that are being discussed and how Chazal , Rishonim and Acharonim worked at elucidating TSBP and finding their way back to Sinai. When you learn Talmud, you realize that you are attempting to fill in a missing link. Sometimes, it is tough, but there are times, more often than not, that a light bulb will go on in your head, and you will realize that your concern in understanding a question was that of a Rishon, Amora or Tanna. That’s the kind of simcha that the Avnei Nezer describes in his introduction to the Igklei Tal. May we all be zoche to true simcha when we learn.
Most yeshivos learn the masectos that Mark mentioned. RIETS follows the Mesorah from Volozhin and will learn Brachos ( this year Ketzad Mvarchin-Brachos Hanehin-ikar,tafel, etc) , Moed ( Shabbos) , Nezikin and Nashim. The bachurim and avrechim in Smicha and the kollelim will learn Chulin in conjunction with YD. RHS was recently interviewed in The Commentator and I highly recommend reading the interview for an intro to RHS’s views on Limud HaTorah and how one should go out learning Talmud.
At 44, working a full time job, with a commute to/from work of an hour each way, I find that I have neither the time nor the energy to put in several hours of learning each day. I have been learning Mishnayos (there is a mishnayos yomi program) and practical halocha (mishna brura, kitzer, etc.), as well as chasidus and mussar. Shiurim on CD have been essential in utilizing my 2 hours of commuting time. However, I realize that it is critical to build my gemara skills. I’m combining time with Artscroll and the above mentioned gemara program (Post #4) and even review with my 9th grade mesivta bochur son. (Such nachas!). Will I live to complete Shas? I hope to, but take things one day at a time…
I echo David’s sentiments. It’s a lot to ask, it seems, at that stage of one’s life, but in retrospect starting to practice law or dentistry or accounting or whatever at age 26 instead of 23 is trivial. The opportunity to go to yeshiva full time, if one has it, is best seized if it can be. It paid off for me in spades.
I have a feeling most of us here are somewhat more seasoned citizens, however.
Charlie Hall mentions that it might be detrimental to one’s career to take off time to delve into full-time intensive learning.
However, in a way analogous to the “biological clock,†it is much more difficult to acquire to language skills at a later age.
Therefore, it’s imperative for those who become baalei teshuvah at a younger age, such as post college or post high school, to take off the year or two to “learn how to learn†before embarking on their career.
Better to break your teeth on the Gemara while you’re young than to attempt it later when you’re burdened with responsibilities, and the brain is less flexible.
As far as the first Gemara to learn: Elu Metzios, the classic beginning perek in cheider, has been used successfully by baal teshuvah yeshivos as well. Additionally, there is a lot of material available to help beginning students.
This won’t displace the actual Daf Yomi, but there may also be room in the overall scheme for a highlights version that spends 1-2 hours a day exploring some facet of that day’s daf in more depth.
I would recommend the traditional Yeshiva mesachtos as that is what your yeshiva educated chavrusa is probably familiar with.
Bava Kamma
Bava Metzia
Bava Basra
Yevamos
Kesuvos
Gittin
Kedushin
By the way, Yevamos with lomdus is much more pleasurable than Yevamos Daf Yomi.
The convenience of Daf Yomi works well for some, but it’s often too passive, too fast and too skim-the-surface oriented.
I think Daf Yomi is a great thing for all Jews, and especially BTs. It enables you to encounter a huge amount of material, plugs you into a daily shiur, and automatically connects you to something that Jews all around the world are learning at the same time. For a BT, Daf Yomi is a self-esteem booster because it enables you to gain a broad Torah literacy in a relatively short period of time. It gives you a feeling of ownership. You are no longer an outsider. Also, you never sit around and think, “Gee…what should I learn today…†You always have the daf to work on outside the shiur.
Sure, everyone has to find what learning seder works best for them with the help of a rabbi. However, I think too many BTs are convinced not to learn Daf Yomi (or convince themselves not to learn Daf Yomi) for the sake of spending more time working on skills. Unfortunately, we often suffer from a constant feeling of inadequacy because of our limited skills. Advice such as “real learning begins where Art Scroll ends †and “this is the way to become a citizen in the world of Torah and not merely a holder of a green card†merely compounds this problem. This advice might be appropriate for some people, but plenty of BTs never went to yeshiva and may very well spend their entire lives successfully learning gemara with the help of Artscroll. The pressure to meticulously master each blatt gemara, word by word, is quite frankly too overwhelming for many of us. Some become discouraged and give up learning gemara all together, whereas if that same person was encouraged to grab an Artscroll and join a Daf Yomi shiur, that person could have a real and genuine portion in a tremendous learning experience.
Nedarim is “unusual” and may slightly minimize the gulf dividing mentor and student.
Makkos (Malkus) has a lot of savory lomdus that Mark described right near the surface.
Kodshim Mesichtos rely more on proof-texts and less on sevara.
My Rav says that real learning begins where Art Scroll ends.
I think many people at the later stages of life will not put in the hours necessary to master the technical skills. The average yeshiva educated FFB has spent at least 4-6 full years on technical skills.
However if you have a good chavrusa, you can enjoy the higher levels of deeper learning.And the deeper learning is really where all the pleasure of learning is.
Use the Art Scroll for the basic flow and ask your better educated chavrusa to go deeper with you on the sugyas (Tosfos, Rabbi Akiva Eiger, etc..)
You might want to seriously consider paying a guy who is learning in a Yeshiva. I would also suggest learning the Masechta that the Yeshiva is working on because that is what your chavrusa is working on.
In reality, few have the financial resources to put their whole career on hold and the ability to restart it later. For the favored few, full-time learning for a stretch really could be a good idea.
Some useful books for Bavli-type Aramaic (with some material on Hebrew):
http://www.feldheim.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=1-58330-606-4
http://www.feldheim.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=0-68563-107-9
http://www.feldheim.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=1-58330-776-1
http://www.feldheim.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=0-87306-588-3&type=store&category=search
There are plenty of useful books on modern Hebrew, but here’s something to help you specifically with classical Hebrew:
http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/Reference/LanguageLearningInstruction/Other/?view=usa&ci=9780198154228#Product_Details
Note that the forms of Hebrew used in the Mishna and Gemara (other than quotations from Tanach) are somewhat different from Biblical Hebrew.
Bob,
Good point. I think it is best to start with a mesechta that gives a taste of lumdus, but does not overwhelm, and therefore allows the newcommer to focus on translation skills. Maybe one of the short Moed mesechtos. If one can make a goal to be m’sayim, that gives extra chizuk to stay with it.
To Charlie Hall,
I have found that learning “Shnayim Mikreh v’Targum” (Going over the weekly parsha by reading each pasuk twice followed by the corresponding Onkelos Aramaic) helps a lot in learning Aramaic useful for Gemara.
IMO option 3 (not learning Gemara) should be avoided. In all honesty I learn Gemara regularly, have made progress (according to my chevrusa who is FFB and well-versed in learning) but often do not find it enjoyable.
However, without Gemara, learning other topics such as Mishnayos, Shulchan Aruch and even Chumash with Rashi would be very superficial.
Regarding Bob Miller’s question
“Can anyone here describe any other starting points that have been tried successfully?”
The first masechta I completed in entirety was Megilah. I found this to be a good starting point since
1. It included Halacha L’Ma’aseh (practical)
2. Had some Gemara tools
3. The aggadatica captured my interest
4. It was short and provided a morale boost on doing a Siyum.
I’m now learning something much more “Gemara-like”
I’ve been doing (1) and (3) with the support of my rabbis. I do read the Hebrew/Aramaic in the Artscroll elucidation and am now to the point that I actually understand about half the words although my grammatical knowledge is very poor. Recently I’ve also been using audio shiurim. I also attend a weekly talmud shiur that goes rather slowly.
It is interesting that you don’t mention the alternative of full time intensive learning. My own rav is very opposed to BTs stopping their careers to learn full time.
For myself, I’m approaching the point that I will really need to master Hebrew and Aramaic. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to proceed?
Another consideration is which part of the Gemara to begin with. While students commonly start in Nezikin, some of us may have a better feel for another tractate. Can anyone here describe any other starting points that have been tried successfully?
What I have found most effective, is to find someone willing to say the gemarra to you line by line with translation, and patiently allow you to say it back line by line with translation, correcting as necessary. Then, after about half an amud is completed, the student should say back and translate that entire section. They should continue that way until about an entire blatt is completed and then the student should read back the entire blatt with translation. This is very time-consuming and may necessitate paying a tutor. I believe that the investment is well worth it. This is the way to become a citizen in the world of Torah and not merely a holder of a green card. One will have to limit their other studies for a time period. Like everything else in life, it takes real commitment but it can be done, even by baalei t’shuvah that are already working. Chazor on the train, over breakfast, at every opportunity. If one does not regard it as critically important, they won’t be able to maintain the commitment necessary. That is a choice one has to make, but it can be done. The ability to learn gemorra is not merely an aspect of Torah scholarship. It is the very basis of all Torah study. Even works of hashkafa and halacha, (including those in English) will be understood much better after one developes gemorra skills.
There is a terrific program called Chayei Olam in Monsey. It is directed by Rabbi Leib Shear, who taught at Kol Yaakov once upon a time. The program is designed for those of us who have had very limited or no experience learning in a yeshiva. The gemora class is taught by Rabbi Ephraim Baer, who is on the faculty of Ohr Someach, Monsey. The program is held each Sunday morning at 9:30 (bagels are served). A half hour parsha class is followed by a 90 minute class on learning gemora. The course focusses on HOW to understand the mechanics of a daf…teaching how to take apart the gemara, piece by piece, and is taught at a pace that just about anyone could feel comfortable with.
If you feel “it’s too late for me to be able to start learning gemora”, this program is for you. For more information, write to info@chayeiolam.com, or call (845) 425-3718.
Bob, I like your advice.
It seems that sometimes the difficulty in acquiring the technical and vocabulary skills makes learning Gemora not pleasurable, so the person might not continue. In the Yeshivas the greatest learning pleasure comes from the Havanah – deeper understanding of the Gemora. The beginning student often does not get to enjoy that aspect because they are mired in acquired the basic skills.
Someone in this situation should not ditch Gemara study, but should look for a compatible mentor or study partner (the partner needs to be on a higher level but know how to communicate on a lower level!). If a kollel is nearby, one or more members may be able to help (some also work part-time as paid tutors to help students understand Gemara). Many kollelim also offer classes on all levels to their surrounding communities. Printed literature can help but won’t do by itself.
Studying more accessible texts that already provide the satisfaction of learning can be done in parallel with the Gemara effort.
You could also use artscroll and just go slowly. There is no obligation to do Daf Yomi, if it works for you thats great, but if you would rather go slow go slow.
I will admit I have never really been very successful at Gamara, its a closed book to me.