Many BTs were brought up in an environment of very permissive parenting and have witnessed the perils of such an approach. In the Torah world, there are clearer distinctions between proper and improper conduct and much closer guidance between parent and child. However this can lead to an over-exertion of control and BTs may be more susceptible to this, due to their lack of Torah guided parental models in their lives.
The general question is how does one determine appropriate parental control?
Let’s try to focus on a few specific questions.
– Should you steer your children away from friends whom you deem inappropriate?
– How much of a homework helper should you be?
Obviously these are not yes/no questions, but sharing your thoughts and experiences would be helpful.
For a good article on this subject, see Relinquishing Control – The difficult art of letting go. by Rabbi Noach Orlowek.
Rabbi Horowitz has an article on “Bad Friends”.
Fern, parenting is challenging for everyone, but it’s also the greatest thing in the world! You’ll be fine, like SephardiLady said, just add to what you’ve already got. And we’re all here, if you need guidance, not that the parenting styles on this blog are all the same – far from it!
Fern relax. Sounds like your parents set a great example of what it is to raise mentschen. You can take what you learned from them and add to it.
Charnie–Whew. I have a lot of anxiety about my ability to raise frum children. ;-)
showing up together for parent-teacher conferences and showing up together for back-to-school night (ironically, we were left alone to supervise ourselves some evenings, but it was a different time), chaperoning extracurricular trips, showing up unexpectedly and/or early to social events, calling other parents if we were invited to a party to find out who was supervising, what we would be doing, etc. My parents also seemed to have enough confidence in themselves as parents that they could look the other way sometimes (music choices, friends they would rather I didn’t have but were not bad influences). They didn’t “over-exert†authority, they just were authority figures. (And everyone, from friends to teachers, seem to know it).
Do we have the same parents?
I don’t even have a video/camera cell phone! My kids certainly aren’t going to get one. But it’s getting harder and harder to find the “plain vanilla” type of phone. I had trouble finding one that didn’t have all those extra features I didn’t want.
My 10 year old (the 5th grader) recently wanted an AIM account. I was going to set one up for him, but when I discussed it with my husband, we decided that we didn’t really want him on AIM, even if he agreed to only chat with pre-approved friends, because it’s too hard to supervise. He got over hearing “no” pretty fast. (Obviously, not the first and won’t be the last time we’ve said no to something.)
If parents feel a child needs a cellphone for security purposes – and we all know kids who never can remember to phone home when they go afterschool to visit a friend – wouldn’t a “plain vanilla” cellphone be sufficient. And that’s not even talking about text-messaging, internet access, etc. via cellphone.
Just from reading so many of your posts, I’d tend to guess that we’re a body of people who haven’t forgotten the word “no”.
Charnie-Recently a frum 8 year old asked me to take a picture/video of her with a cell phone. I agreed and then all of a sudden I realized, “what the heck is an 8 year old doing with a cell phone?” Turns out it was hers. Permissivness is most certainly alive and well in frum circles.
In reply to Fern, I don’t think, overall in day to day parenting, it’s necessary to scrap the examples your parents set. I tried reading a frum parenting book 21 years ago when I was pregnant with my first child, and never got further then about page 3. These days, however, there are a lot more books, probably better written on the market.
There’s only one time I had to actively intervene with a friendship I felt was inappropriate – a youngster who used bad language and didn’t tell the truth. I suggested to my son, who was about 10 at the time, that he curtails that friendship, and he did. Unfortunately, this same boy apparently had “issues” that were beyond the scope of a mainstream yeshiva, and he’s now in a Yeshiva where he gets a lot of individual attention, and I hear that, B”H, he’s doing quite well.
As to Sephardi Lady’s point about parents not being able to say “no”, this is quite evident in all circles. When I ask one of my sons why almost his whole grade (jr. high) have video cellphones, he tells me that the kids ask for them, the parents buy them. To me, that’s totally inappropriate.
Lastly, the entire education system today, secular and non-secular, is heavily test-oriented. Many teachers complain that they spend more time prepping for tests then actually teaching. And thanks, Mark, for pointing out that not all kids, even bright ones, test well. However, these days’ grades are heavily weighted on test scores, which often have detrimental effects.
Oops, knew it. Speak of homework, my parents made themselves available as needed, but they stayed in the background. However, when they found certain teachers were lax when it came to correcting grammar and spelling, my parents took out their own red pen.
I think Miriam is correct that every child needs their own level of supervision. But, I’ve seen plenty of kids and adults who lack internal drive and focus. I think sometimes too much help can be a hinderance.
This is just my own personal opinion, but I think there is a lot of permissiveness in the frum world, but it is hiding underneath many of the restrictions. Purim might be an extreme example of the permissiveness that we see, but it is one of many examples, and it is perhaps the most timely. Another issue is the behavior in school that is tolerated and/or encouraged which is simply unacceptable.
Many parents are simply unable to say “no” to their children and as a result many children are simply unable to say “no” to themselves. If this wasn’t the case, I wouldn’t have much of a blog!
I didn’t grow up in a permissive household. I think when you understand your parents expectations and your parents take an active part in your life, you police yourself. Some of the things my parents were known for doing: showing up together for parent-teacher conferences and showing up together for back-to-school night (ironically, we were left alone to supervise ourselves some evenings, but it was a different time), chaperoning extracurricular trips, showing up unexpectedly and/or early to social events, calling other parents if we were invited to a party to find out who was supervising, what we would be doing, etc. My parents also seemed to have enough confidence in themselves as parents that they could look the other way sometimes (music choices, friends they would rather I didn’t have but were not bad influences). They didn’t “over-exert” authority, they just were authority figures. (And everyone, from friends to teachers, seem to know it).
From the perspective of an adolescent, my parents were a real pain. Now as an adult, I really appreciate what they did for us.
What if your parents did a pretty good job on the whole? How do you figure out what is a good idea for raising Torah observant children and what is not? I guess what I am saying is, if you had parents that permitted, or even encouraged, all sorts of behavior/activities that are clearly outside the realm of a Torah observant family life, then it seems easier to “not do what your parents did.” But if you had pretty good parents, who were on the whole, on the conservative (socially) side of things, and very active in synagogue life (albeit a Reform one), how do you know if what you grew up with can be tweaked to fit a Torah life or if you have to chuck the whole megillah and read 1000s of frum parenting books (are there such things)?
For example, my parents largely did a good job in helping me establish healthy friendships. How is friendship-forming different in the frum world than it is in the secular world? It’s not as if good secular parents what their children hanging out with kids who do drugs or ditch school or any sort of other bad influence.
There are also times when it helps to make common cause with other parents facing the same problem or dilemma. It’s easier to have an impact on the system if you’re not alone.
It makes sense to work as much as possible within the system. Most times you will meet with success.
In any case there are times where you have to go around the system for the benefit of your child. If you don’t think that makes sense, please speak to a Rav before you do needless harm to your child.
When discussing this with learning professionals, they’ve told me this is one thing to do in overwhelming workload situations.
Explaining to your child why this is the correct procedure can be delicate, but the main thing to communicate is why this is best for the child and how school uniformity rules often don’t allow for exceptions.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the rigid grading and rating systems in schools is usually not Torah-driven and sometimes not healthy for average and below average test performers.
Another point on doing the child’s homework for them, are we affecting the grades/punishments of the other kids who are doing the homework themselves or are not doing it but admitting not doing it?
Michoel, I said “on occasion”. Is this not obvious to anyone who has been through school systems of any kind?
In an ideal world, homework and tests are designed to see whether a child has understood the material as opposed to a “make work” exercise. IMO,parents should be available for chazarah, as opposed to even thinking of doing a child’s homework.IIRC, we did not do any of our children’s homework.
“The same teacher who overdoes the homework may on occasion be a petty, vindictive tyrant…”
What?
Frum teachers petty, vindcitive tyrants? They are holding up the universe! Call’em up and speak to them.
The same teacher who overdoes the homework may on occasion be a petty, vindictive tyrant, so the parent needs to survey the scene before venturing in.
If a parent does a child’s homework instead of contacting the teacher or principal about the “issue”, are we teaching our kids that lying (handing in homework that the kid didn’t do and acting as if s/he did) is ok and what about the question of genaivas daas.
In a perfected world, teachers would not hand out any useless homework, so this is another thing to look forward to.
There are teachers that give out ridiculously time consuming, non productive assignments and are strict about them being handed in. If the child would spend their time on these high cost-low return assignments, they would not have time to spend on the smart, makes-sense homework they need to do.
In that case if you make your child do the ridiculous work at the expense of the smart work, you’re making a mistake – IMHO.
We considered two schools in Baltimore for our sons. Each one had strengths. Our Rav recomended the one that we now send to. One of his major considerations was that this school (has a longer school day but) gives less homework. Our Rav is an a very highly regarded person in the Jewish world whose opinion is taken very seriously all over.
I am just throughing this out as something to think about.
There is no “except.” Why on earth would parents actually ever do homework?
I know it happens. I am just gob-smacked that it does. I can see intensively helping the child, but certainly there is never any rationale for the parent actually doing the work, is there?!
Miriam, thanks for sharing your insights and experiences
I think one of the issues is what is the role of homework. Is it
1) to learn the material
2) to review the material
3) establish another base mark for grading
4) some combination with some other reasons thrown in.
Unfortunately, my experience has shown me that these issues have often not been well thought out by the school or the teachers. They are usually not getting paid enough to become master teachers or to give our children the individualize attention that they deserve.
As another example, what is the purpose of memorizing 20 history facts which will surely be forgotten shortly after the tests.
So the purpose of helping with homework is to allow the child to spend the time that they do learn at home on something truly productive. I think it is the responsibility of the parents to determine what that is. Sometimes that entails helping them get the homework over with so the time can be spend on things that make sense for your child.
Of course it’s worth repeating that every child is different and every teacher and class is different. I also think that we need to have a different approach for Limudei Chodesh (Torah) vs Limudei Kol (Secular).
My approach to this is different for each child. I currently have 4 children in school.
“HT” is in 1st grade, has minimal homework, and does it happily and independently. I actually had to convince her to let me help her study for her daily Chumash-related vocabulary tests.
“RM” is in 2nd grade, has a little bit more homework, and if I don’t stand over her and make her do it… well, she won’t. The end goal is to get her to do it independently, but the short term goal is to get her to do it. She doesn’t need help with the actual work, (but she’s an “old” second grader, having missed the cut-off by a scant month) but she does need prodding to do it.
“CD” is in 4th grade. She might need a reminder to do her homework, but then she usually does it independently. However, she often needs a lot of direction on more creative assignments and projects, to help her focus her thoughts and jump start her creativity. She is likely to get overwhelmed and say, “It’s too much!”, “It’s too hard!”, “I can’t think of anything to write about!” or “I can’t do it! So I help her break it down into manageable segments, and then I make her do (most of/all) the actual work. My husband thinks I help her too much, but I think she actually needs the help, and that it will eventually lead to her learning how to break things down herself. If time is tight, I’ll type for her even, since she’s still a very slow typist… but usually we just leave extra time for that, since practice is the best way to get faster. When she had a diorama to do for school, she designed it, but I helped invent a way to make her trees, which she then did for the actual project.
“MY” is in 5th grade. He attacks his homework first thing, often even starting it and possibly finishing it in school, or at a friend’s house after school. I do have to remind him to practice his clarinet for the school Band, and I also help him minimally with large papers, mainly trying to wean him away from his version of “not plagiarizing,” which is simply substituting synonyms into the same sentence structure for certain key words. I’d prefer for him to actually understand and rewrite the information in his own words, of course. When he had a diorama to do, I simply provided materials that he requested and set him loose. The only thing I really help him with on a regular basis is a side program that he’s doing through Pirchei Agudath Yisroel, where he’s supposed to learn an entire seder of Mishnayos in time to make a siyum on it for his Bar Mitzvah. My husband keeps pretty late hours, so I learn the mishnayos with him during the week, and then he reviews them with his father on Shabbos. I never thought I’d be learning mishnayos! But I get the Hebrew-English copy, and MY uses the all-Hebrew.
But for all of them, I don’t do the homework for them, anymore than my mother did for me, because then what’s the point?
As for friends, we’ve been lucky in that there don’t seem to be any inappropriate choices of friends in their school, and they don’t really have other opportunities to meet people right now.
It’s not just homework where the individuality standard is paramount. IMHO, the key to administering proper parental control is individual determinations. Of course, there needs to be some bright line rules but, outside of that, you need to know your kids and balance the benefits and risks of each determination. What is critical, as well, is always reminding yourself that parenting is a long term job and that the easy way out now may have detrimental future results.
I think, perhaps, one of the most difficult parenting questions is the one of steering “your children away from friends whom you deem inappropriate.” The issues here are manifold and recognizing what they are may be the first step in developing a proper response.
Thee are certain situations where it is clear that you need to steer your child away from a friend (as a drastic example, the friend is involved with drugs, g-d forbid). While steering a child away from the friend in such a circumstance is still difficult, it is easier knowing that you are clearly making the right decision.
It is concerning the less drastic but still important situations about which I wish to highlight some of the potential issues of concern:
1. Creating greater (beyond the kids) communal rifts;
2. Having your kid kick-back and want to strengthen the friendship solely because they know you don’t want it to continue (yes, believe it or not, kids will do that :) )
3. Unintentionally teaching your kids judgmentalism;
4. Making the wrong decision since you didn’t seek guidance from a Rov, friends, others in similar situations
Regarding homework, a lot depends on the individual child. Some have a knack for working independently, some can do so with the right preparation and training, and others need to be led along. I would rule out a parent’s doing any of the homework solely to relieve the child’s burden, except when the teachers have handed out way too much. A parent helping with homework has to clue the child in about the thought processes and work habits being used.
Addressing whether schools give too much (or too little) homework is a different question. But given the assumption that the homework load is a given, handling it is a tricky one.
On the one hand providing assistance takes some pressure off your child from the sometimes/often heavy homework burdens. On the other hand regularly providing help creates a dependency which may not be healthy.