My wife and two sons and I are going to visit my wife’s parent’s for Thanksgiving.
Athough my wife’s parents are not frum, they keep kosher to standard that we will eat there, even if they don’t do things exactly the way we do.
However, this trip proves to be stressful. Unless something changes in the future this could very well be our last Thanksgiving visiting them. Starting next year my son’s school has half days on Thanksgiving and the day after.
My in-laws do not live within walking distance to an Orthodox and over time we came to the conclusion that we will not spend Shabbos at their house. This was aggravated by the fact that they moved to be closer to us but still chose a home that was outside the eruv and too far to walk to the nearest shul.
I wanted to spend Shabbos in the town where my in-laws live and then come back motzai Shabbos and spend Sunday with them. My wife wants to go back home Friday morning even though making Shabbos will be hectic due to the early candle-lighting time. In the future, we might spend Shabbos with strangers in the town my in-laws live in (since my son has a half day on Friday) and then spend Saturday night and Sunday with them.
Beyond BT has in the past had several posting about the appropriateness of Thanksgiving, but I never saw anything about anyone’s thoughts on the difficulty of it being so near Shabbos and the problems of Shabbos with non-frum family.
Have you spend Shabbos at non-frum family?
What have you done to minimize and difficulties?
What have you done to maximize the experience?
Thanks
-Yisroel
Nu, I’m bursting with curiosity. How did it all work out for you and your family? Tell us, let us know, we’re your support team.
OK, this is the big week, T-day minus one! Please let all of us know how it worked out. Best wishes for you, your wife, your children and your wife’s parents to have a fantastic time spent together, with much love and happiness and hugs for the grandchildren. Have a wonderful Shabbos!
Here’s a possible suggestion: Maybe you could go to your in-laws on Wednesday right after work and sleep over that night, so that you spend Wednesday evening and Thursday morning with them as well. Eat an amazing kosher Thanksgiving dinner together, sleep over again Thursday night, then leave early Friday morning with kisses and hugs. Your wife will get her wish to spend Shabbos at home, and your in-laws will get plenty of quality time with the grandchildren. You, Mr. Guest, will be a hero to everyone for accommodating everyone’s preferences with a smile. If the in-laws still did not get enough of the cute grandkids, well Shabbos ends quite early and you can then decide if you want to bundle the children into the car dressed in their pajamas and sleep over on Saturday night to Sunday morning. Is there a possibility of getting advance permission to arrive late to work on Monday morning following the long holiday weekend? If so, then maybe another sleepover from Sunday night to Monday, with a final goodbye between loving grandparents and delicious grandchildren early Monday morning. As you state, with your child having to attend school half a day on Thurs and Fri starting next year, this is really the “last chance” for the grandparents to fully enjoy an extended Thanksgiving holiday with their grandchildren. As long as everyone approaches this situation wanting to make it work, there’s no reason why it shouldn’t.
I did not have the time to read through the other thoughtful postings on this, so someone may have suggested this. I cannot stress this point enough: Do as much as you can to not let them know what you need. The more unassuming you are about how things should be done, the more pleasant and long lasting positive feelings will be engendered. The most important thing they should see is how your family gets along, sings, dances,and how every-body has the warm fuzzies about what they do. If you happen to drop a nice little, short idea about Shabbos once- that would be nice, but just from your own perspective. They should feel this so unimposing on them that they can’t believe how beautiful it was.
Please let us know how it went. Hatzlocho Rabo. You have the opportunity to make a wonderful Kiddush Hashem. Also, enjoy the time together because I did see how someone said they would give anything to have their family together again. I couldn’t agree more.
Oh, and make sure you bring the most amazing kosher turkey or stuffing or cranberry sauce or carrot cake. That’s the icing on the cake! :)
“Have you asked the ILs if they have a preference to you leaving Friday vs. coming back after Shabbos?”
My in-laws would prefer that we spend Shabbos in the local community and then come back for motzai Shabbos and Sunday, ‘cuz that way they get to see the kids more, but my wife wants to go home. In the future we might go the community for Shabbos since my son will have a half day of school on Thanskgiving and Friday, so we could go Friday after school and then see the IL motzai Shabbos/Sunday. Alternating T-days in the future won’t work beacause as I mentioned, starting next year my son has a half day of school on Thanksgiving and the next day. So we will be home.
When my oldest was 1 we did the stay at strangers’ house near a shul thing, except the community was a Chabad, the Rabbi’s guest space was taken by visiting family and we got to borrow a congregant’s empty house, being told to not use the keilim or warm anything except double-wrapped in the oven before Shabbos.
It was all a bit crazy, and I was home with the baby all day while DH walked 1 mile plus to shul and back after plus davening, but we went back after havdala to peace, instead of the grouchiness on both sides that would have occurred if we had stayed over Shabbos.
Maybe not as easy if you’ve stayed at their house before. Have you called the local shul about accomodations? Have you asked the ILs if they have a preference to you leaving Friday vs. coming back after Shabbos?
I definitely agree that you don’t want kids in the position of “hating” Shabbos and the grandparents possibly enticing them towards problematic pastimes. Maybe swapping T-day by them and by you alternate years would work?
When I was a kid, we had 3 family homes that swapped off hosting to equalize the traveling vs. cooking work. Just because.
Some general thoughts about Shabbat at non-frum homes. I have done some of these things, and would do others in future opportunities.
The refrigerator light has been mentioned in several comments. That should not be a problem. Bring some packing tape and tape down the switch. After Shabbat, remove the tape and wash off the glue. I do that every week in my own home.
Bring a few Shabbat timers, a few nightlights and maybe a small lamp or two.
If you are worried about the relatives tampering with the crockpot, you can live without cholent. Check with your rav about the use of Shabbat hotplates (plata) and timers on the hotplate, and bring one of those with you to warm other foods. If that’s not an option, bring meat or some other foods for sandwiches. Bring plenty of pastries from home to bribe all concerned.
Everyone at some point spends Shabbat in a place where shul is not accessible and there is no eruv. Often this is during trying circumstances. It is best for kids to learn how to adapt to such a situation in a pleasant atmosphere.
I think that your idea of “in the future” spending Shabbos itself by strangers in the same city, then returning for motzaei Shabbos and Sunday, is great. Why not implement it this year 2009 instead of waiting for next year 2010? Tell you the truth, even the most devoted family members get annoying over four days (as I found out the hard way over a rainy Yom Tov and Shabbos combination). Leaving your in-laws on Friday afternoon but returning at seven on Saturday night might actually give everyone a much-needed break from each other. And let’s face it, if your in-laws are strictly Kosher but not frum, they might prefer to not host you for Shabbos for many big and little reasons (example: do they have a light bulb in their refrigerator that goes on when the fridge door opens?) The main thing is that everyone approaches the upcoming event with love and anticipation, not anxiety and trepidation. Contact the shul you’d like to daven in that Shabbos and find out if there’s a family which can host you for that Shabbos. Some families actually find it easier to host guests on that particular Shabbos since they’re off from work on Thursday and Friday. Good luck, and please report back next month on how it worked out for everyone.
I would add to my above (already too long) post that when we stayed at my parent’s house, or my wife’s, there was no opportunity to go to shul. It was a sacrifice we consciously made. I would take advantage of the opportunity to daven at my own pace alone out in the backyard, or some such. A walk in the neighborhood or some meditative time on the beach was always good. There often are compensations of a sort.
I think an interesting discussion by itself might be whether we have a different or weightier responsibility in something like ‘honoring parents’, given the potential for both positive and negative perspectives on Judaism resulting from our actions with family and old friends?
If you prepare food for the “Shabbos of Thanksgiving” a week in advance, when you are cooking for the previous Shabbos, and freeze it, there won’t be such a panic on erev Shabbos of Thanksgiving. Although I have never had this situation, I think I would go home for Shabbos. Sounds like the situation there is a little tense; a nice day-long visit on Thursday and an overnight is probably enough.
With my family we have done all the options over the years, and they all worked. Also with my wife’s family, who aren’t Jewish. We didn’t stress about it; we just did what seemed to work for that occasion. The key thing is always to be flexible, not to have many demands, and be a bit adventurous. It helps that we’re old backpackers. ;-) It also helps to have some confidence in halachic matters, and to know what is really possible and acceptable.
We have flown in from Israel, and made Shabbat at parent’s non-observant homes. Also drove the three hours from Mass. to CT later on. True, not my ideal atmosphere. But now, almost ten years after my father’s death, I still have wonderful memories of him sitting at the table which was cooperatively set by my mother and wife and hearing kiddush and make a motzi. And we always took walks in the neighborhood, or took advantage of my parents’ library while there. And when the children were with us, it was a tremendous opportunity in respect and love for family for them.
We have also rushed home for Shabbat. A three hour drive back then. The worst stress was ‘what if an accident or weather keeps us from making it on time?’ As for food and such, we planned it out before going to CT and kept it very simple. Okay, so one Shabbat we won’t have a gazillion courses on the table. But that relaxing of the routine allowed us time with family with all the importance that has.
Nowadays, my mother lives in assisted living and it isn’t very convenient for Shabbat, even though she has her own nice apartment. So I stay there during the week. If I am staying through Shabbat, then I go to someone else for Shabbat and return when Shabbat is over to have extra time with my mother. She knows I keep Shabbat. She knows it is important and inviolable to me.
So, all the options have worked for us. Our parents know we keep Shabbat and kashrut, etc. They know they can’t expect us to alter that. We, for our part, are a little flexible and give up some nonessentials in order to have time with family. It requires some knowledge and flexibility. Now, when my father is gone and the others are all quite old, I am very glad that we made the efforts and spent time with them and continue to do so.
I used to go to my (non shomer-shabbos) parents for shabbos when my children were small enough that it didn’t matter. But we haven’t done that for years. We used to go for thanksgiving and then rush home on Friday morning. But now we just invite the whole extended family to our home for thanksgiving, and it needn’t be phrased negatively. That is, we don’t say “Mom and Dad, we don’t want to be with you for shabbos so please come to our home for thanksgiving.” Instead, we plan well ahead of time and in the summer say “Mom and Dad, we would love to have you come to our home for thanksgiving. and if you’d like to stay for shabbos we’d love to have you.” That pretty much solves all the problems –no worries about kosher food, no worries about shabbos, no worries about offending anyone since we are inviting them. This wouldn’t work for someone who got a psak that they are forbidden to celebrate thanksgiving, however.
I like Charnie’s suggestion (#17), especially the last part:
“How about bringing your in-laws home with you after your Thanksgiving feast under the guise of “we really want to spend more time with you – it means so much to the kids – and you’ve already done so much for Thanksgiving, let us do Shabbos…â€. I’m sure that would be totally truthfull!”
Whatever you do, remember that your children are learning from you the proper way to behave to parents. You model it to them. Treat your parents or in-laws as you would want your children to treat you — especially if they made different choices than you. If you want them to feel that spending time with parents and grandparents (you, one day, G-d willing) is very important, then show them now how important it is.
Yes, parents really can drive us nuts. One day, we will presumably drive our children nuts. (I have an adolescent, so actually I already do). How would you want your children to relate to you in such a situation?
Could you invite your inlaws to you for Shabbat? Tell them that you want it to be a “family” weekend and that its easier if you host them. That way the kids get time with the grandparents and everyone can go to shul. If you cook ahead of time, freeze, and just leave things out to thaw Thursday morning, you’ll be fine for Shabbat without having to worry too much about cooking (or you can dress up my favorite thing EVER, thanksgiving leftovers!).
Guest, you not only don’t say how far the shul is from your in-laws. You also don’t mention how far you live from them. Is it an hour away, or a 3 hour drive.
Let’s go with the assumption that it’s the latter (3+ hours). Wouldn’t you rather hear your kids kvetch a bit about not going to shul Shabbos morning then hear them carrying on during the return trip home either Thurs. night or Fri. morning?
How about bringing your in-laws home with you after your Thanksgiving feast under the guise of “we really want to spend more time with you – it means so much to the kids – and you’ve already done so much for Thanksgiving, let us do Shabbos…”. I’m sure that would be totally truthfull!
This is a tough situation — just because the in-laws keep kosher. The fact that they do not keep Shabbos nullifies the ease for Shabbos accomodations. A person can keep kosher, but make the kosher food on Shabbos breaking mulitple melachos. We have spent T-giving with both sets of parents early on in our marriage and it did not work at all with regards to their feelings about Shabbos. They made fun of us, turned off and then on the crockpot with our cholent (because they were worried about it blowing up their kitchen), would not turn off the light in the fridge (they claimed it couldn’t be done) and generally drove us nuts.
I would never do it with kids (and we live in a place with no shul and no eruv (other than our home/yard) as I don’t want them to hear/feel their negative feelings about Shabbos. If we had parents/in-laws with a positive sensibility for our level of observance, I might consider a winter Shabbos as the evening could be devoted to board games and the next day is short enough to do a nice melava malka afterwards. I wouldn’t worry about the school part though.
I have spent a Shabbos in the same town (even one time within [big kid/grownup] walking distance!) and the in-laws come for part of Shabbos to them/us. A courteous host will understand the reasoning behind your stay and be happy to host you. If you feel weird about going to anyone for Shabbos, that is a different issue.
Whatever you do, don’t go spend Shabbos with strangers in the same town as your in-laws. I think most people would take that as an insult. It’s better to just stay in your own city if you’re adamant about not staying with your in-laws for Shabbos.
Guest, didn’t see your last comment until I finished mine. I still think it’s worth it to try, but understand if it’s truly not feasible.
Still curious how far is “too far” from shul? Also, how old are you kids?
If economically feasible, buy your Shabbos food Friday morning (or Thursday night) at the closest kosher establishment, run home, throw it on the blech, and relax and enjoy Shabbos. There is no place like home, especially on Shabbos. We have done this countless times when we were in NYC during the week for a simcha or other reason. It could be a little hectic, give yourself extra time (we almost had to pull over in Monsey once, but after being on the road in three different places for an entire Pesach I was determined to make it) but well worth it.
You should definitely make every effort to spend Shabbos with your in-laws. That they keep kosher is very significant and makes things much easier. Sounds like shul is the only major issue. How far is it?
As far as your kids not having an eruv, you need to look at it as a chinuch opportunity. It’s a great to really make sure they understand the laws of Hotazaa. (There’s a community in NJ where the Rav used to intentionally bring down the eruv once a year just for this purpose.) If your in-laws have a yard you can build a small eruv with the kids. Otherwise spending one, early-ending, shabbos in the house should not be the end of the world. Make sure you have lots of games and reading material. It’s a terrific bonding opportunity for them with their grandparents.
We spent many Shabbatot and every Pesach (first days) with my in-laws while they were alive. My children only gained from the experience. They’ve grown up to be warm, welcoming and non-judgmental. Kids of BTs have such an amazing opportunity to experience first-hand that one can love and admire someone even if they’re not frum. Make the most of it while you can. I’d be thrilled to have that chance again.
Maybe you all missed this fact in my earlier post, but we have spent Shabbos at my in-laws before, when they were at their old house. So the advice to “try it out” is a little misplaced, as we have tried it for years. As my kids got older it got progressivly harder to the point that we were considering not doing it anymore, and them moving to another house that was too far from the shul even though their grandkids begged them to please be close to a shul for our visits was a partial imputus to stop going for Shabbos.
I guess different kids have different personalities, but kids crave shul. If they are too sick to go to shul or it is raining too hard they almost cry.
We are definately going to Thanksgiving (at least this year.)
I was looking for more advice about how people handle family visits when Shabbos is not on option, especially since most secular holidays are often right before or right after Shabbos. What do other people do? Do you spend Shabbos with strangers? Rush home to make Shabbos?
Meant to say (above):
Spend the Shabbos with your family. You’re already way ahead of many of us by virtue of the fact that your in-law’s kashrut is acceptable.
While not having a shul within (reasonable) walking distance is optimal, maybe if you’re the only one going you can still do the walk.
As far as the eruv, why should that be a problem, unless your kids are of the age where they need to go to a Shabbos park with lots of toys and snacks? If they’re school age, they can certainly understand that if they go for a walk, they have to check their pockets. Shabbos afternoon is pretty short this time of year, so you should be able to survive indoors as well.
Dear Guest Contributor,
Don’t read too much into your in-laws’ choice of their house. For most days of the year, they are much closer to you than they would have been otherwise. For them to buy a more “Shabbat friendly” house might have been much more expensive with limited use for that benefit.
You know your children best (as stated in your comment #2) but eventually they will learn to adapt to being outside the eruv and praying at the house..or they might do the further walk to shul.
Are they old enough to understand that grandparents age and that this will not be a permanent opportunity?
My last suggestion is to do (as silly as it sounds) a practice Shabbat (on a few Sundays or the like) where they go through the rigors of non-eruv life for half the day and then progressively more, and find out that they can handle it.
Shabbat Shalom and Happy Thanksgiving.
Maybe you can have THEM for Thanksgiving and shabbos? Sure your mother in law would love to have a break from cooking.
“Non-Frum” comes in various flavors and intensities. Some have a greater regard for observant Jews than others do and would try not to desecrate Shabbos, etc., in the presence of observant relatives. Having no minyan around is a major problem, though. Even under ideal conditions, a Shabbos spent in a non-Observant home is a real nisayon.
You should definitely go and spend Thanksgiving with your In-laws. You can be Frum and still respect and enjoy your non-religious family. Perhaps they will see how being Frum made you , your wife and children happier, closer and how it brought more meaning to your life.
Spending an occasional Shabbat with them will also give them a taste of it’s beauty and who knows they might decide to make the commitment.
Most importantly it will make your in-laws happy to host you and their grandchildren for a Shabbot. Your children will also learn respect and tolerance.
AVOID Shabbat with non-Frum relatives by any means possible, no matter how great the expense or offense.
JUST SAY NO to Shabbat with non-Frum relatives. Period!!!
Thanksgiving in Albany has been my family’s tradition since we moved up here. It was just easier to have the extended family with us (none of whom are observant) than to try to run around, make things kosher, and figure out Shabbos. My wife and I really embrace it now, getting to see all the relatives that we don’t see often enough while keeping the “home field advantage” Some of the braver relatives will sometimes stay for Shabbos giving us a mini-kiruv opportunity. The only drawback is leftover turkey for Shabbos, which I feel a little guilty about.
I know that in my case spending Shabbos in a place with no shul and no eruv is not really an option becuase my kids can’t handle it. They love going to shul and they can’t feel trapped inside and not able to carry. I don’t want to be put in a situation where I’m apologizing to them for it being Shabbos and them waiting for it to be over. The last time we spent Shabbos with them at their old home before they moved closer one of my kids got so stir crazy they ran up and down the stairs yelling.
Also, I feel that my in-law chosing a house that was too far from the shul might have been there way of telling us that they don’t want us there for Shabbos anyway.
I’ve been frum for about 14 years and I have 3 kids. My parents have been gone for 8 and 7 years. If I could spend Shabbos and Thanksgiving with them again I would no matter how challenging it might be. I urge you to think hard about your priorities here. If I could do it again, without QUESTION, my priority would be to spend and have my kids spend precious time with their grandparents.
I’m assuming spending holidays with your family is rare since they don’t spend Yomim Tovim with you, as mine don’t/didn’t. Take advantage and spend the one holiday you can WITH them!
I most definitely think being with the grandparents on Thanksgiving is worth missing a half-day of school. You will probably find attendance to be sparse anyway — that’s what we found.
Tips on how to deal with Shabbos at the in-laws… I don’t really have those. I only have the perspective of a woman who wishes she could spend more Shabboses with them regardless of some of those compromises she might have to make regarding shul/school/etc.
Bottom line is that as long as you are not transgressing mitzvos, your and your kids’ relationship to your parents and grandparents must be kept as a very high priority regardless of the discomfort to you.